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Old 05-12-2014, 12:22 AM   #1
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Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Hello Everyone,

I have had several requests for info about our veggie conversion. I will open up a thread for our veggie oil conversion in the WVO Section. It's an ongoing journey that we just started For our bus conversion, visit here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=467346

Just last week, we received many of our conversion parts for our 1992 Bluebird School bus. It is a 5.9 Cummins and has a P7100 Bosch Injection Pump.

After a lot of research, we decided to go with mostly WVO Designs parts and their centrifuge for an on-board filtering setup. After some chatting with Leon, the owner, they decided to sponsor our project, which is really exciting for us. This is a first conversion for me and I have been spending many, many late nights researching the system and figuring how to adapt SunWizard's setup for our bus. He is the owner of the forum www.burnveg.com. I am sure we will have lots of questions as we go. This week, I will be rounding up parts such as fittings, fuel line, coolant hose, etc.

Here is the diagram from SunWizard for his 5.9 Cummins that we will be basing our system off of:


Here's our conversion parts list so far:

Tank:
116 Gallon Aluminum Military Fuel Tank.


Fuel Pickup:
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/wvo-conv ... tickb.html
WVO Designs RAW Power Hotstick
13" - Will be expanded via the threaded port to ~26" to pick up fuel from the bottom of the tank.

Veggie Filter:
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/wvo-conv ... ilter.html
WVO Designs Coolant Heated Filter Head
Donaldson P551000 Filter/Waterblock with Drain Bowl
WVO Designs Heated Filter Wrap

Flat Plate Heat Exchanger
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/wvo-conversion/fphe.html
30 Plate from WVO Designs

Valves
http://www.iboats.com/1_4_X_1_4_X_1_4_N ... w_id.67211
iboats.com manual 3 way valves, per SunWizard's conversion - X3

We also got the following to help us collect and filter oil:
Centifuge
WVO Designs Raw Power Basic Centrifuge
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/centrifu ... ifuge.html

Bolt-On Heater Assembly
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/centrifu ... r-rpc.html

"Power Booster" - This helps to eliminate splashing as the WVO enters the centrifuge.
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/centrifu ... oster.html

Transfer Pump - We are mating the WVO Designs pump head to a 5.0 HP Honda Gas Engine we recieved for free from a pressure washer that had a broken pump.

Goldstream Monster Pump Head
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/pumps/oi ... -only.html

Pump Adapter Mount - for Gas Engine
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/pumps/oi ... motor.html

3/4" Shaft Coupling - For Honda Engine
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/pumps/oi ... pling.html

14mm Gas Coupling- For Pump Head
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/pumps/oi ... pling.html

Rubber Connector Element
http://www.wvodesigns.com/shop/pumps/oi ... pling.html

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Old 05-12-2014, 09:37 PM   #2
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Be careful of the info you read on the net about p pumped 5.9 cummins. Most of it will be about dodge trucks, not buses.

What was SunWizard's conversion? The reason I ask is your diagram shows a lift pump. Your bus has no lift pump in the fuel tank. For easy priming, you will need to install a inline electric pump.

Nat
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:53 AM   #3
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_ster
Be careful of the info you read on the net about p pumped 5.9 cummins. Most of it will be about dodge trucks, not buses.

What was SunWizard's conversion? The reason I ask is your diagram shows a lift pump. Your bus has no lift pump in the fuel tank. For easy priming, you will need to install a inline electric pump.

Nat
He speaks about his mechanical lift pump that is driven by the engine piston. Isn't this exactly what our bus has? When I get back to the computer, I'll get you a link to his full conversion. I won't be copying it exactly, but everything I read says we have the strongest and most reliable lift pump out there and not to add an electric pump because they will go bad over time. I'm not opposed to it if it is necessary, but this diagram doesn't imply a lift pump in the tank...
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:04 AM   #4
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

The full diagram doesn't show up for some reason. Right click and click "open image in new tab". That might clear up some things!
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:30 AM   #5
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Yes our buses have the mechanical lift pump on the side of the engine. Yes that is the best for running diesel, and never running out of fuel, or changing tanks.

Most WVO WMO Bio users run a electric before the mechanical lift pump to prime the system. Otherwise you will hate yourself pushing that black button on the lift pump on the side of the block a few hundred times.

Nat
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:53 AM   #6
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Another option might be to put a fitting on the fuel tank that allows you to pressurize it with compressed air. When I change fuel filters on my WVO car, I blow air into the tank, forcing the fuel to prime the system. Of course the system has to be opened somewhere so the pressurized fuel can flow. I'm sure you can design an easy to use fitting with a machine screw and o-ring somewhere just before the injection pump to create that outlet. That will reduce the amount of time you spend cranking the engine to get it primed. The biggest problem I've had with bio fuel systems is finding tubing that will not degrade from the fuel. Viton, of course, is the thing for any kind of gasket. And there is special tubing too that is designed for the purpose. Next time I install a WVO system (which I plan to do in my bus) I will use all banjo connectors. Hose clamps are not your friend, trust me.
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:15 AM   #7
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Dan
Another option might be to put a fitting on the fuel tank that allows you to pressurize it with compressed air. When I change fuel filters on my WVO car, I blow air into the tank, forcing the fuel to prime the system. Of course the system has to be opened somewhere so the pressurized fuel can flow. I'm sure you can design an easy to use fitting with a machine screw and o-ring somewhere just before the injection pump to create that outlet. That will reduce the amount of time you spend cranking the engine to get it primed. The biggest problem I've had with bio fuel systems is finding tubing that will not degrade from the fuel. Viton, of course, is the thing for any kind of gasket. And there is special tubing too that is designed for the purpose. Next time I install a WVO system (which I plan to do in my bus) I will use all banjo connectors. Hose clamps are not your friend, trust me.
I have been considering this for the portions of the bus where the fuel is not under high pressure. Thoughts?

http://www.procycle.us/main/fuel_hose.htm

Also, could you let me know more about these banjo connectors you are talking about? I am not familiar with them.
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:49 PM   #8
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

I've tried that hose from procycle. It failed. I can't believe they are still marketing it for that purpose. Maybe nobody ever told them it doesn't last. I've tried every kind of translucent tubing you can imagine. It all failed. I love the idea of it because you can see where air is getting in. But it does not last. You want to find hose made of Viton or similar material marketed specifically for biodiesel. In my research I found that SAE 30R9 fuel injection hose was the best alternative to Viton, and less expensive: http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=5144. I also found this stuff: http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/biodieselfuelhose.php. It's been a while since I looked into available products, but it seems like the market has responded to this demand. It seems like a key word is " Fluoroelastomer". It will be more expensive that regular tubing. It will be worth the money. Seriously. The majority of problems I've had with my WVO system were related to hose failure. The translucent hose gets brittle and splits, and the typical rubber hose just turns into slimy gook. Just do it right the first time and save yourself a lot of grief and roadside breakdowns.

Banjo fittings look like this: http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorspor ... fuel-banjo

You take your fuel hose (already cut to length) and banjo fittings to a fuel injection shop or hydraulic supply house, and they have a machine that clamps the hoses onto the fittings with a special sleeve. I have not yet tried this method myself, but this is how diesels are set up from the factory in parts of the fuel system where steel tubing is not used. Check out your bus engine, and I'll bet you find some of these fittings. The problem with hose clamps is they cut into the tubing, and any time you loosen and re-tighten them because you had to remove a hose or whatever, they become more and more damaged. Then the WVO starts eating at the end of the tube - even the good tubing is often only lined on the inside with the Viton, but the outside is susceptible to degradation. Typically, hose clamps don't even really seal perfectly. The banjo fittings use soft metal (copper or aluminum) crush washers to seal them, which are easily replaced. The tubing never gets messed up because it isn't being squished and torn up by the hose clamp.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:46 PM   #9
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

I'd avoid banjos. Besides being costly, they make a gret place to start a restriction. Let me share a learning experence:
From the 1st time you make your own oil-and the 1st mile you drive, you'll always be learning. And some of those lessons will be the hard way.
No matter how clean you think you got your oil, there will always be some "paprika" in it. (Fine brown powder build up.) If you don't get your oil clean, the stuff will plug filters-and build up in your system. If your oil is clean, it will just take longer to acumilate.
I had a lesson about long term maintance on my Jetta-after 120k miles on veg. I had a fresh rebuilt engine-and hopped up pump. I had my thottle go wide open on me. I chased it down to a big pile of paprika getting in the pump + holding the fuel pin. But where did it come from? The pump was only on the car about 3k miles. I started by undoing hoses + blowing air thru the system-all kinds of crap came out! I tore into ever inch of my system. Magnifying glass + pipe cleaners. I was shocked-every elbow had a little -and the banjo going into the pump had a bunch. Same with my solenoids. Everywhere you had a change of direction,there was schmutz. Just a little bit--over a long time.
Here is good choice for hoses. Push lock connectors + hose. http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-lock-hose/=ryew1i Only $1.50 a foot-and comes in colors. No hose clamps-no leaks-no getting things crimpped.
Heres my system-mounted underneath the bus on a slide out track.
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:32 PM   #10
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdwarf36
I'd avoid banjos. Besides being costly, they make a gret place to start a restriction. Let me share a learning experence:
From the 1st time you make your own oil-and the 1st mile you drive, you'll always be learning. And some of those lessons will be the hard way.
No matter how clean you think you got your oil, there will always be some "paprika" in it. (Fine brown powder build up.) If you don't get your oil clean, the stuff will plug filters-and build up in your system. If your oil is clean, it will just take longer to acumilate.
I had a lesson about long term maintance on my Jetta-after 120k miles on veg. I had a fresh rebuilt engine-and hopped up pump. I had my thottle go wide open on me. I chased it down to a big pile of paprika getting in the pump + holding the fuel pin. But where did it come from? The pump was only on the car about 3k miles. I started by undoing hoses + blowing air thru the system-all kinds of crap came out! I tore into ever inch of my system. Magnifying glass + pipe cleaners. I was shocked-every elbow had a little -and the banjo going into the pump had a bunch. Same with my solenoids. Everywhere you had a change of direction,there was schmutz. Just a little bit--over a long time.
Here is good choice for hoses. Push lock connectors + hose. http://www.mcmaster.com/#push-lock-hose/=ryew1i Only $1.50 a foot-and comes in colors. No hose clamps-no leaks-no getting things crimpped.
Heres my system-mounted underneath the bus on a slide out track.
That's a pretty slick setup! Do you have a WVO Thread?
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Old 05-13-2014, 11:33 PM   #11
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

PS: I just noticed the hose is rated at 150 degrees farenheit. Technically, this isn't high enough as the buses run up about 30 degrees higher or so. Any problems with lines?
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:24 AM   #12
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

No WVO thread-but willing to answer questions.
Your engine may like warm veggie-that why you have a FPHE-but you won't need to get your tank that warm. As long as its warm enough to flow forward, that all you need. I have a small water line to heat my pick up. It still will get the tank into the 120-130 range. The hoses are fine after 4 years. (My 7.3 naturally heats the oil-the fuel bowl is in the middle of engine-plus the fuel goes thru the heads.)
Run your engine up to temp-now put your hand on the IP-I bet its pretty warm. How much you think that your IP + FPHE together hold? A quart? The few minutes it takes to burn that quart, it will be plenty warm. Why heat oil you won't be using for hours?
My pick up. The heat hose is coated aluminum-stove hook up gas line from HD.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:09 AM   #13
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

I like banjo fittings. IMO there is nothing better.

I would not even concern myself with buildup in lines, fittings, ect. If you are getting buildup of anything in your lines, your doing something way wrong, and your going to have much much bigger issues when that crap reaches your injection pump, and injectors.

The centrifuge will clean the oil better than any filter is going to. Pe settling helps a ton. When I get back to using waste oil as fuel, I'm going to set a 1000 gal propane tank on end, paint it black and fill it. The sun will heat the oil, helping it separate the heavy from the light oils, and it will drop the crud and water to the bottom where it can be drained off. My fuel oil will be drained from the middle to the top.

The lower oil will be used as heating fuel.

If one pass in the centrifuge was not enough, give it a second pass. Hell, keep doing it till there is no more crud being removed.

Nat
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:36 AM   #14
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_ster
I would not even concern myself with buildup in lines, fittings, ect. If you are getting buildup of anything in your lines, your doing something way wrong, and your going to have much much bigger issues when that crap reaches your injection pump, and injectors.
Agreed... buildup can point to a lot of problems. Reactivity with metals, Fats in the oil, Polymerization, etc. Build-up = Not good
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:08 PM   #15
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

That hose is rate for 150 degrees-at200 psi. I've used those hoses on a dyno with 220 degree oil at 80 psi in them no problem.
Whatever got in the system wasn't from 1bad batch-it was over the course of 7 years and 120k miles. As I said, they'll be a learning curve as anyone goes along.
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:09 PM   #16
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdwarf36
That hose is rate for 150 degrees-at200 psi. I've used those hoses on a dyno with 220 degree oil at 80 psi in them no problem.
Whatever got in the system wasn't from 1bad batch-it was over the course of 7 years and 120k miles. As I said, they'll be a learning curve as anyone goes along.
What year was your Jetta?
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:39 PM   #17
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

Was/is a 91. Still my daily driver. 375k miles- 175k of those on veg. 45 mpg. Greasecar kit-with added FPHE + Vegtherm electric heater.
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Old 05-14-2014, 11:14 PM   #18
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

So what I have learned so far from this thread and others, is if you intend to drive big miles on WVO, learn how to take your fuel system completely apart, clean, reassemble. This is every hose, starting at the tank, lift pump, the injection pump, the injection lines, and pay to have the injectors ultrasonically cleaned and tested every 100 to 150,000 miles.

That's right, pull every part of the injection pump that contacts the fuel apart for cleaning.

So to any fellow members that would like to run WVO, Do you realy have time, knowledge, ect to do all this?

Or is it better to stick to what you know at your daily job, and pay for ready made fuel at the pump like 99.99999999% of the population?

I for one like the tear down, and rebuild. It gives me the opportunity to keep the engine in tip top running condition. I also like the confidence / security of knowing my system inside out. This is why I chose a mechanical Cummins, and to build myself a 28,000 pound GVW truck from scratch, using all the best components.

Nat
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:19 AM   #19
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

A little extreme-but some maintanace could prevent having to do that much. I do pull my injectors once every couple of years to ultrasonic clean them (fairly easy on the Jetta-and the cleaner was only like $50) and I'll take hi press. air + blow thru the system once a year-and remove the FBHE once in a while + boil it out. We'll see how that goes long term. On the bus, all I've had to do is boil out the heat exchanger (formerly a Ford oil cooler) the fuel filter screws on to.
I'll bet its easier to keep a bus sytems clean. The fuel moves thru the sytem alot faster at 10 mpg than at 45 mpg.
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:24 AM   #20
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Re: Two Birds - Veggie Conversion Thread

For us, time is more available than money and we tour 30000+ miles per year doing music events! I've never done anything like this before, but have been researching for months. A fellow Skoolie member who has done conversions on several buses will be helping me install next weekend. This is partly why i didn't just buy a kit too... Just to learn how the system works and functions so we can do roadside repairs if the need arises.
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