4WD Conversion

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Yes! Like that

for winter travel where there is lots of snow

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Hey we need someone to do a rock climbing skoolie

for winter travel when there is a lot of snow

darn picture didn't down load

[Sehnsucht]

Not to disagree with Ronnie but rather to perhaps elaborate... True 4 wheel drive versus what I call 'all wheel drive' because that is common parlance in the automotive word is the difference between 1 front and 1 back wheel with power and all 4 wheels with power. Back when I was into offloading Jeeps this was a key distinction because as mentioned previously an off camber scenario can still prohibit a not-actually-4WD from proceeding but conversely a true 4WD with locking differentials cannot navigate winding trails or sharp turns. Now upscaling this proposition to a bus-sized 4-wheeling vehicle, twisty trails isn't likely to be a common obstacle but depending on how off-road you're planning to go there is the likelihood of deeply fitted trails and significant obstacles like fallen trees. In these situations, I think an open diff in the front is sufficient and an optional locking diff in the rear should suffice for anything I can imagine braving with such a large vehicle no matter how capable it is. The other considerations then become things like underguard or armoring sensitive components beneath the vehicle and of course breakover angles which will truly suck with such a lengthy wheelbase. I guess approach and departure angles are also a consideration with the lengthy tail of a bus wanting to drag on everything. Then there is the small matter of axle articulation because Jeeps use a coil spring and control arm suspension on a live axle whereas buses use heavy HEAVY leaf springs which only flex under weighted load but not articulation. So depending on the expectations for off road capability the entire suspension system may need to be re-invented because even using a donor 4x4 vehicle more than likely won't increase the suspension travel, just provide the 4wd powertrain components.

Just more food for thought. I'm actually kind of enjoying thinking through this one even though I have no desire to do it myself.

[JustKip]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

Not to disagree with Ronnie but rather to perhaps elaborate... True 4 wheel drive versus what I call 'all wheel drive' because that is common parlance in the automotive word is the difference between 1 front and 1 back wheel with power and all 4 wheels with power. Back when I was into offloading Jeeps this was a key distinction because as mentioned previously an off camber scenario

I'll go ahead and dispute this.
My '04 F150 FX4 is "True 4WD", and only has a rear locker. Not too many years earlier, it was typical to have open dif on both ends of a OEM 4x4. AWD is typically full time, and on modern ones uses the ABS and traction control systems to control wheel spin. The AWD on a Subaru uses a viscous coupler instead of a transfer case. If you have a T-case that allows you to select between power to one axle, or power to both, it's real 4WD, lockers, limited slip, or opnn.

[Sehnsucht]

Originally Posted by JustKip

I'll go ahead and dispute this.
My '04 F150 FX4 is "True 4WD", and only has a rear locker. Not too many years earlier, it was typical to have open dif on both ends of a OEM 4x4. AWD is typically full time, and on modern ones uses the ABS and traction control systems to control wheel spin. The AWD on a Subaru uses a viscous coupler instead of a transfer case. If you have a T-case that allows you to select between power to one axle, or power to both, it's real 4WD, lockers, limited slip, or opnn.

Agreed. I guess I failed to define the difference. I'm going to chalk it up to sleep deprivation (I'm driving overnights this week, ugh!)

[JustKip]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

Agreed. I guess I failed to define the difference. I'm going to chalk it up to sleep deprivation (I'm driving overnights this week, ugh!)

:sigh:
My bad, d00d. I figured out what you were saying after I posted. yeah, One wheel slipping defeats an axle, so without a locker, you've got one effective wheel on each end.
I'm also working nights, and posted at the end of a 10 hour shift, before heading home.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by JustKip

:sigh:
My bad, d00d. I figured out what you were saying after I posted. yeah, One wheel slipping defeats an axle, so without a locker, you've got one effective wheel on each end.
I'm also working nights, and posted at the end of a 10 hour shift, before heading home.

Yes this is what I mean by "real" 4 wheel drive. Was not talking about AWD versus 4WD.

Both diffs locked does make for a real lack of steering... So selectable lockers like an air locker that can be turned on or off by the driver gives the best of both worlds. I have to say the locker in my bus can make parking lot manuvers rather noisy and for lack of a better word weird. It is a Detroit Gear locker.

Not sure how effective a limited slip would be in a bus. They have left me stuck a time or too, that a locker would not have.

To be truthful soft ground is more of a concern, once you sink in getting 10 tons of bus out becomes a real problem, so some thought about where are you really going to drive has to come into play.

For me as a boat builder I am always towing boats and launching them often at gravel or dirt ramps. So the bus with a long overhang and locking diff is a real advantage. No plans to take it on trail rides...maybe haul a jeep to a trail.

[Sehnsucht]

No worries!

[john61ct]

Don't you hit total-length limits pulling a 35-40' trailer behingd a full size skoolie?

I always figured would need to use a shorty or chop off the back make like a fifth-wheel platform, helpful with a 15,000# boat

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Don't you hit total-length limits pulling a 35-40' trailer behingd a full size skoolie?

I always figured would need to use a shorty or chop off the back make like a fifth-wheel platform, helpful with a 15,000# boat

Maximum length of a combination varies by state. IIRC: 55-70 feet. Most common is 65 feet.

Yeah.... I think a full size bus pulling a 35-40 foot trailer may be problematic.

[john61ct]

Might even need to chop a shorty, doesn't leave much bunk space.

Live out of the land yacht I guess, use the bus body for tools / tankage / utility storage.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by JustKip

I'll go ahead and dispute this.
My '04 F150 FX4 is "True 4WD", and only has a rear locker. Not too many years earlier, it was typical to have open dif on both ends of a OEM 4x4. AWD is typically full time, and on modern ones uses the ABS and traction control systems to control wheel spin. The AWD on a Subaru uses a viscous coupler instead of a transfer case. If you have a T-case that allows you to select between power to one axle, or power to both, it's real 4WD, lockers, limited slip, or opnn.

many times I've used a judicious touch on the emergency brake to get a little extra torque on the rear wheels of a 2 wheel drive care when that little bit extra traction is needed to get up a slippery slope

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Don't you hit total-length limits pulling a 35-40' trailer behingd a full size skoolie?

I always figured would need to use a shorty or chop off the back make like a fifth-wheel platform, helpful with a 15,000# boat

Bus is 34 ft, and most of the boats are between 25 and 30 ft add 5 more for the trailer tongue. So yes right at the limit or slightly over. Virginia is 65ft max for RV plus trailer

[Brain's 97 Diesel]

THIS IS A LONG ONE SO..... SORRY?

Love it love it love it. Keep the thoughts and ideas coming. I'm enjoying the "polite" difference of thought or opinion as I don't like when forum bashing worms into a discussion.

My personal vehicles since 1986 have been trucks. 1986 Mitsubishi Mighty Max reg cab long bed 2.0L 4cyl 5speed 2wd (bought new) /1986 F150 reg cab 8' bed 4.9L 6cyl 3speed on column 2wd (bartered for in 2002?) / 1994 F150 ext cab 6.6' bed 5.0L V8 auto 4wd push button on dash (bought off orig fam, 2nd owner for 2005 travel trailer in 2005) / 1997 F250HD (my favorite) ext cab 8' bed 7.3L diesel V8 E4OD auto 4wd floor shift (bought from original owner thru a dealer in 2007 w/ 85K miles, made the deal of a lifetime for IMO) / 1995 Flare Side F150 reg cab flare/step side short bed 5.8L V8 E4OD auto 4wd push button on dash ("son's" truck that I've yet to see a $ for ha. Bought in 2016 for him to commute from PA to Clemson SC for college, now he drives 2004 Taurus for better MPG).

I don't and have not gone Four Wheeling in any sense of the activity, I just prefer 4wd or fwd vehicles for winter driving conditions and when I go camping with family or Scouts BSA (formerly Boy Scouts of America, don't get me started on that BS) as I usually have the most capable vehicle on the trips for the sketchy things we sometimes do, get ourselves into, or do helping others. My 1997 F250, up until it ate it's trans (knew it was happening as torque converter was going first), was my daily driver and my camping truck. It has a limited slip front and rear axel from factory (yes front too special ordered by original owner) so on gravel or dirt roads in 4wd if you mash the go pedal all 4 wheels do spin, I tried it twice when I first got it fun but abusive, but fun. 4wd on any dry pavement is near impossible to drive, snow or wet or off-road ok just a little stiff. Currently our travel trailer is at a seasonal campground since I only get every 6th weekend off except if I use vaca time. Truck camping is done with Scouts but not as frequent as when my son was in the Troop, I now pick and choose what I really want to go on. Many times I'm asked/begged to go on trips or if Troop can borrow my truck (I only loan to 2-3 friends) because it can haul gear as well as tow a trailer. Several of these trips per year are a bit remote from the parking areas but I usually get my truck into the site to unload and then put back into the parking area. I've never violated any rules of any camping area, and a few times amazed the Ranger who says you can but I wouldn't. My all time favorite trip was a crew of 10, 4 adults and 6 youth, went to Philmont Scout Ranch in Cimarron, NM. We backpacked for over 110 miles thru the wilderness of NM for 10 days carrying all of our gear and needs on our backs, stopping at base camps to pick up food every 3-5 days. We had to "find" water on the trail by reading the map and checking the base camps for "safe" water spots on the trail. At one point we had to carry enough water for 2 days as the 2 water stations became contaminated (one a dead animal no filter was going to help that / 1 a "unidentified chemical" was found in the pump station retention pond) that was 2.5gal / 20#extra per person. The bitch fest never stopped for those 2 days. But it made a great life experience for all that you ALWAYS leave it better than you find it.

So why all the blabbering / blubbering today IDK bored? I want you to try to understand me better? I want you all to be my new best invisible internet friends? Not really just so I can lead to my next blah blah blah (ha ha).

I'm eligible to retire in 11 years, I have always wanted to travel the lower 48 and go visit Alaska, so this is (right now) my retirement plan / idea. Or as my wife calls it my midlife crisis. My parents traveled for a short period right after retirement until health issues made them stop, I don't enjoy flying (I'll do it) or cruises (claustrophobic/feeling I'm trapped on the boat), I've always enjoyed vacations when we drive to where we are going to see the country we live in. Since 2005 we've been to Cedar Point, OH / Canada / Hershey Park, PA / Six Flags, NJ / Kings Dominion, VA / Luray Caverns, VA / and many private and state park campgrounds in the PA, NJ, DE, MD area around Philadelphia, PA. So that is my vehicle and camping experience, nothing extreme or wild. My little fantasy for the past 10 years is to build a vehicle, then leave my home in PA just as Fall ends and head south towards FL, then west towards CA, then north towards WA, hitting the Canadian border at the right time of year to travel the Alaska Highway up into Alaska and be able to travel around Alaska without having to worry about roads being still closed for the Alaskan Winter as apposed to emergencies that happen. Then head back before the roads start being closed again for Winter. Friends (school teachers) did this trip last summer leaving the Monday after school ended (June 11?)and returned around Labor day weekend (just days before school started again), they went through 2 sets of tires on their bikes, new road tires getting to Alaska, then new hybrid tires for the roads in Alaska, then back to the road tires for home with hybrids shipped back home. They took over 2.5 months and went all the way to the Artic Ocean / Circle. I admit I do not wish to ride a motorcycle anymore, but would in an emergency (probably an on / off road bike) hauled on or in bus, but this is basically the trip I would love to make in the bus.

First (with out the wife going) vehicle was going to be a bobbed Duece, that evolved into an LMTV 1079-A1 van truck, then (short lived) a F350/450 crew cab truck with a built truck bed camper, then the wife reconsidered going along so now a Skoolie.

School bus ideas are #1 a FULL SIZE bus. Diesel, automatic with OD, 4wd. I'm no expert but I am familiar with Ford/International/Navistar 7.3L so I am thinking 7.3L International but open to other "better" diesels that may provide better reliability, power, torque, and/or mpg. I want something with common parts for ease and cost of repair when necessary. I don't want a 500HP 7.3L that is already living on the edge before you pull out of the driveway. If I run alternate or hybrid fuel systems again cost effective and ease. Propane injection, water methanol, WVO, WMO or whatever else there may be. I'm thinking propane appliances with 2-20# "exchange" cylinders as propane appliances are effective and less expensive. Energy efficient 3 way fridge as large as I can get for the cost to buy and run. I'd like to do solar to be as off grid as possible for as long as possible. Back up generator for emergency prefer diesel as bus will be diesel, unless a very efficient propane model is available. Thinking hot water and heat: Webasto type: with ability to preheat the engine, heat water for personal use, heat cabin space either by converting to hot air (automotive type radiators or heater cores) or by radiant floor heat with loops running in the floor (and lower walls?) of bus will require insulating both sides of the bus floor. Height: I'm 6' so prefer something I don't have to raise but I will if I have to. Length: Unsure right now, but I know longer than a mini bus and shorter than a 40' bus. I'm not afraid to cut down the length of the bus body & reattaching the back to the rest of the body, or cutting down the frame as needed and reattaching the bumper. May be the first roof raise, body shorten bus EVER.

Ok I've blabbered enough so like my wife says it's time to shut up and let others talk, you are not giving a Sermon or a lecture you idiot. Damn I love that woman.

[Ronnie]

Two other traction aids to consider,

Tire chains

Sanders

Either with 4wd or not. I would say tire chains would be real good to have for an Alaskan trip anyway.

I have seen sanders on buses but have not used them myself, seems they would be best for black ice or hard packed snow, kind of useless in mud....

[Brain's 97 Diesel]

IDK what sanders are. By the name I assume they are a contraption that throws or dumps sand onto or around the drive wheels.
Those automatic chain things look like they would work and yes to tire chains.
The one shop I used to work at had a shop truck/plow truck. 2WD 1970s Chevy with a creeper first gear, we had 2 sets of tires for it, winter or plow tires and the normal tires. Once thanksgiving came we put on the rear plow tires with a dedicated set of bar chains and 1/2 filled with liquified calcium chloride (I think) and 3 heavy weights got chained into the bed, MPH dropped to 20mph tops, MPG dropped to 8mpg tops. Right before first snow plow tires went on front (truck tires that were tread cut and looked like thy SHB on the front of a tractor) and plow was mounted. Truck never left property until last snow or April 15 when it was converted back to shop truck (parts, lunch, run a customer home). Thing plowed all winter clearing the property never getting stuck never missing a beat. Once you let the clutch out in 1st gear you never shifted except to back up and it almost never stalled unless you forgot and drove it into the snow bank and didn't push the clutch in.

[Ronnie]

Yes sanders have a pipe in front of each drive wheel and put sand down as you go. Locomotives have been doing this for years. On locomotives air is used to blow the sand on the rail in front of the wheels. I think on buses it is just gravity feed.

[PNW_Steve]

I have auto chains on my A3RE. I had never seen them before so I did some research.

The consensus was that they work in 2-3" of snow but aren't much good in deeper snow.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by Brain's 97 Diesel

IDK what sanders are. By the name I assume they are a contraption that throws or dumps sand onto or around the drive wheels.
Those automatic chain things look like they would work and yes to tire chains.
The one shop I used to work at had a shop truck/plow truck. 2WD 1970s Chevy with a creeper first gear, we had 2 sets of tires for it, winter or plow tires and the normal tires. Once thanksgiving came we put on the rear plow tires with a dedicated set of bar chains and 1/2 filled with liquified calcium chloride (I think) and 3 heavy weights got chained into the bed, MPH dropped to 20mph tops, MPG dropped to 8mpg tops. Right before first snow plow tires went on front (truck tires that were tread cut and looked like thy SHB on the front of a tractor) and plow was mounted. Truck never left property until last snow or April 15 when it was converted back to shop truck (parts, lunch, run a customer home). Thing plowed all winter clearing the property never getting stuck never missing a beat. Once you let the clutch out in 1st gear you never shifted except to back up and it almost never stalled unless you forgot and drove it into the snow bank and didn't push the clutch in.

I haven't used those automatic chains, but I can see why their reputation would be accurate - good on ice and some snow, but as the snow gets deeper they lose their effectiveness -so ice, and 2 or 3 inches of snow, they would be great - if I found a bus with them on, it might be a tipping point between that bus and a similar bus without the automatic chains - deeper snow needs a good fresh set of SNOW tires, not all seasons or mud tires, although 'snow and mud' work ok

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I have auto chains on my A3RE. I had never seen them before so I did some research.

The consensus was that they work in 2-3" of snow but aren't much good in deeper snow.

I nearly bit it the winter before last - 'was towing a trailer, slowing cautiously at icy intersections when a light changed to red and traffic was already crossing the intersection - it was so slippery and coupled with the road being canted to the right, I almost landed on the traffic island - I was feather light on the breaks too - conditions like approaching an icy intersection would be an ideal place to engage those automatic chains