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Old 03-11-2015, 03:29 PM   #81
Bus Geek
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske View Post
You are the reason I first posted links to No Shock Zone in RV Electrical Safety.
Again, some one took something free on the net, made it into a book with their own interpretation, and started trying to make money off of it.

I'm the reason Lorna? Care to elaborate with more detail?

I have never had a electrical issue in any of the homes I have wired.

I fully support the use of grounds. Just not connected to the metal bus.

Nat
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Old 03-11-2015, 07:13 PM   #82
Skoolie
 
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As a generator tech and solar designer and installer one of the things in life that always seems to be in the way is the "if factor". If you do or don't maintain your power system what could happen? You might get a shock one morning or it may work properly. If you don't like grounds to the metal then don't ground that way if you do then do. But a grounded 12 volt system to the chassis was meant to reduce the amount of wire runs made on the vehicle and reduce interference
Simply put do as you all will, me I like grounds to the metal part. Now no one said anything about cheap inverters, there are some very expensive inverters on the market that do not bond neutral at all. I've spent hours trying to keep a customer from wasting money on them because expensive must be better.
Ships and boats are another story I will never claim to understand how they work. But I do believe they must have a return circuit or electrons wont flow. What ever they call it neutral, ground or return of the magical smoke inducing stuff. It has to be. I'm not sure of Canada but here in the good old USA our service entrance is all 3 wire from a center tapped transformer. Hot, neutral and hot. Ground is established at the service entrance of the house with a rod, plate or properly sized and buried wire. Mobile wiring in not exactly like house wiring, neither is on grid done the same as off grid. While this debate can carry on how's about we agree to disagree on chassis grounding. Nat you wont and I will.

Have fun
Chuck
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Old 03-11-2015, 07:20 PM   #83
Bus Geek
 
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Well said chuck, pro's and con's to both.

Nat
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Old 03-11-2015, 07:27 PM   #84
Skoolie
 
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One thing to remember no matter how you wire your stuff check those pesky service plugs in the came grounds. I use a meter because it reads small and large voltages. After I plug in I check my bus for hot skin. No I don't touch it I use a Fluke "no contact tester" works great.

Be Safe be smart and "Live Long and Prosper"
Chuck
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Old 03-11-2015, 10:40 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taskswap View Post
. . . .
Anyway, that means neutral and ground are the SAME THING in the main panel in your house - and probably should be in your RV, too. But only at that one location. In almost all configurations, everything downstream (sub-panels, other boxes, etc.) should be "unbonded" . . .
The bus load center (circuit breaker box) is always a "downstream" sub-panel from the main disconnecting device in the house or campground that you are plugged into. The neutral should be bonded to ground at that main disconnect, but never inside a vehicle fed by a shoreline. Use a buss bar insulated from ground for the neutral wires in your bus.

Quote:
A GFCI can be installed anywhere - it's usually point-of-use (in the bathroom, kitchen, etc.) There are GFCI devices that can "chain" or be installed "upstream" - examine your device for installation instructions.
I have daisy-chained GFCIs at home - the GFCI feeding the bedroom also feeds another GFCI in the bathroom. There are "hot" and "protected screws on a GFCI outlet, but both the downstream hot and neutral must be connected to the protected side. You cannot just connect the hot and then tie all the neutrals together.

Also, if you bond the neutral to the ground anywhere downstream of any GFCI, it trips RIGHT NOW! So if you bond neutral and ground in the load center on your bus. and connect the shoreline to a GFCI-protected outlet, don't be surprised when there is no power being fed.
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Old 03-12-2015, 12:14 AM   #86
Bus Nut
 
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Yeah, lots of different ideas here and no clear right or wrong, except I TOTALLY agree with the statement about shore power feeds. Those are a MIXED BAG and I don't mean oats and wheat. 2-day-a-year campers beat the tar out of a lot of them - I can't count the times I've found a broken blade or ground pin still stuck in an outlet. I definitely don't trust them with my life.

Trust... But verify...
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:30 AM   #87
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If you don't ground the metal skin of your bus then you have no protection from a wire shorting out onto the metal skin and creating a hot skin situation. Granted if you go with a ground plate in the lake you should be fine, but how convenient is that? And pretty sure that will not meet code in USA.
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:31 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadsled01 View Post
If you don't ground the metal skin of your bus then you have no protection from a wire shorting out onto the metal skin and creating a hot skin situation.
Every wire will be in plastic conduit. No chance of a wire ever touching the metal.

My stabilizer jacks touch the ground. The bus will always be grounded by them whenever parked.

My AC electrical system will be grounded with the ground rod, or ground plate.
Even a ground wire with a clamp on the end for metal water pipes that are buried in the earth at the campground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadsled01 View Post
Granted if you go with a ground plate in the lake you should be fine, but how convenient is that? And pretty sure that will not meet code in USA.
What code? RV Code? Residential code?


Nat
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:29 PM   #89
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_ster View Post
I read the book too, years ago.

I will not use the body or any metal of the bus as a ground. All grounds will be isolated from the metal in the bus.

I will be using all plastic boxes. No metal.

Every wire will be in plastic conduit.

The way most RV's are grounded is poor at best. I will be using a ground plate in the moist earth, or a ground plate submerged into a pond for a good ground.

If you don't connect any grounds, ect to your bus, you will have no chance of hot skinning. A energized bus is the last thing I want.

Nat
I'm Mike Sokol, writer of the No~Shock~Zone blog, which I began to write copyright back in 2010, and the book No~Shock~Zone RV Electrical Safety, which includes all my original No~Shock~Zone articles which I published first as a Kindle book mid 2014, then as a paperback in late 2014. The book contains additional new content and diagrams that was never on the blog. So no, I definitely DID NOT pull together a bunch of free stuff from the Internet into a book. I wrote every word, created every graphic, and took every picture myself.

Now in terms of isolating the incoming AC ground from the RV chassis, that's not only a violation of the NFPA-70E National Electrical Code, it's a violation of the RVIA code that specifies how RVs are to be wired. Plus it's REALLY dangerous, and here's why. Even if you do succeed in isolating your RV's chassis/skin from the incoming AC Ground (The EGC - Electrical Grounding Conductor) there's ALWAYS the chance of an electrical appliance shorting out internally. For instance, I've serviced a number of microwave ovens that had their power transformers overheat and begin dumping fault current to their chassis. Without a proper, low-impedance fault path, it can offer a serious shock hazard to anyone touching it and any interior metal, or even a stream of water from the faucet. So to be code compliant, your RV's chassis needs to be bonded to the incoming safety ground wire (EGC) in the shore power line. And that safety ground MUST be isolated from the RV's neutral wire. The neutral and ground will be bonded together externally, eventually from the campground or home's electrical service panel, or possibly your generator which may require an internal Ground-Neutral bond.

Secondly, putting your jacks down on the dirt does essentially NOTHING to "ground" your RV. And even pounding in an 8-ft ground rod really doesn't "ground" your RV. That's because the "ground" wire in the shore power line is really misnamed. It really should be called the "bonding conductor" which connects your RV chassis back to the service panels Ground-Neutral bonding point. This is what creates a high-current fault path which is what trips the circuit breaker to protect you from shock. Jack plates on the ground create a few thousand ohm "earth path" at best, when less than a 1 ohm fault path in the EGC is required by code. Even a properly installed ground rod can measure up to 100 ohms to earth and still be in compliance. It's really there to act as a path for lightning, and not as a ground fault path for 120-volt shorts. So yes, a ground rod DOES NOT ground your RV. Please don't argue with me on this because it's all in the NEC if you'll take the time to read it. Remember, I'm stating scientific fact, not my opinion.

Now, what qualifies me to say this? Well, I have a mechanical engineering degree from 1974 plus most of an electrical engineering degree two years later, plus I earned a Master Electrician License back in 1978. Additionally, over the last 5 years I've created and run dozens of electrical grounding experiments seeking to confirm how this all works for the RV and pro-sound industry.

And I've run my grounding experiments and conclusions by a bunch of my EE buddies, including electrical substation engineers, manufacturer engineering groups, and the guys who write the RV technician training manuals. And they all concur with my findings about RV grounding. I've also discovered and named a few miswiring conditions which the electrical construction and test industry had not been aware of. See Failures in Outlet Testing Exposed | Contractor content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine where I introduce the concept of a Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground. And here's an interview for B&K Precision where I show some of the gear I use to create my electrical shock demonstrations. Mike Sokol: Electrical Shock Prevention in Sound Systems - B&K Precision

So if you have any questions about how this all works, please email me or post them here. I'll be glad to attempt to clarify the technology. It really can be confusing, even for electricians and technicians.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
No Shock Zone
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Old 03-22-2015, 07:16 AM   #90
Bus Crazy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsokol View Post
. . . So to be code compliant, your RV's chassis needs to be bonded to the incoming safety ground wire (EGC) in the shore power line. And that safety ground MUST be isolated from the RV's neutral wire. The neutral and ground will be bonded together externally, eventually from the campground or home's electrical service panel, or possibly your generator which may require an internal Ground-Neutral bond . . .
Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
No Shock Zone
Thanks, Mike.

p.s. nat_ster is in Canada. I don't know if the NEC applies as rule there, but best practices should.
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