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Old 02-22-2016, 08:26 PM   #21
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We're stumbling toward perfection.

Your description was fine, I just totally missed it.

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Old 02-23-2016, 10:27 AM   #22
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Ok, so now that I know my converter is normal..

Here is what I have come up with.. havent sized my wires and CBs yet because i need to read some specs on the draw of some things..



note: the distance between the converter, 150a solenoid, battery, relay, and 12v circuit breakers will be fairly close.
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:10 AM   #23
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T92P11A22-120 - TE CONNECTIVITY / POTTER & BRUMFIELD - General Purpose Relay, T92 Series, Power, Non Latching, DPDT, 120 VAC, 30 A | Newark element14

anyone have experience with a product like the one in link?

Its a realay rated for 30a @ 120vac for $12.... i dont see anyreason why I couldnt use it to automatically switch between inverter and shore power.. the inverter would be wired to the normally closed pole and when plugged into shower power the shore power would send power through the solenoid

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Old 02-23-2016, 11:44 AM   #24
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ok that schematic doesnt show how the ground and neutral would work

the relay in the link is a double pole double throw relay, so it really looks more like this:



still dont know what to do with the ground..... i believe you are supposed to either the inverter ground or the shore ground..... i need a tptt lol
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:58 AM   #25
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Here's how I would wire the thing:



Use an A/B relay before the AC breaker panel and an on/off relay on the converter AC input.

All grounds go back to the bus body one way or another.
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:17 PM   #26
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Awesome, thanks for that! thats actually the same as I have drawn now except the relay is in front of rather than behind the converter which shouldnt make a big diff other than using an AC rather than DC relay ie the same pilot line.. I will probly swap to that set up just to keep things clean

so its ok to ground shore power to the bus? thats really my biggest question at this point

thanks alot for all of your help roach!

*edit, that does make a (bigger) difference because i can wire shore power directly too the converter rather than splicing in and the converter will still be switched off! very clean..
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:39 PM   #27
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also, im not very educated on charging batteries esp. with these converters... It seems like it would over charge if connected directly like shown?

I tested the charging circuit on my converter with a multimeter and it read 8v (not connected to a battery or anything), the other circuits read 12.8 - this is confusing to me as i would expect the charging circuit to have higher volts and just a low current
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Old 02-23-2016, 02:56 PM   #28
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If you wire the converter in before the breakers just be sure to use the proper 10ga wire (assuming a 30amp shore power plug) so the pedestal breaker protects the wire. I'd also check to see whether the converter itself has an internal fuse.

The 120v panel grounds to the bus body, otherwise a loose wire could short to the body but not trip the breaker creating a hot skin condition where the body is energized. Anyone touching the skin would then feel anything from a slight tingling to a massive shock depending on how well grounded they were at the time.

Some people have found mis-wired shore power pedestals that can cause the same condition. When plugged in somewhere new, testing your body with a cheap voltage checker is always a good idea.

I'd hook the charger to the battery then see what voltage you're getting. A good three stage charger will start off at ~14.4 volts at high amps to bulk charge (up to about 80% charge) then taper off to ~13.6v at low amps to finish the next 20%. Once the battery is fully charged, voltage drops down to 13.2v at very low amps to keep the battery topped off.

I just checked my auto battery charger and I'm getting 14.5v when attached to the battery and .65v when unhooked measuring at the clips.

12.7 - 12.8v is a fully charged battery. 12.1 is 50% discharged. For good battery life it's best not to deep cycle (drain) a deep cycle battery. They'll handle being drained a lot better than starting batteries but you'll get much better battery life if they don't go below 50%.
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:05 PM   #29
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ok good to know, ill test it when hooked up to battery! thanks for the great info.

do converters generally have separate circuits for charging and general use? im wondering if this is unusual/ if its ok to use any of the circuits to charge
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:24 PM   #30
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Since most things electronic draw power in standby mode my preference would be to put the relay on the input side of the converter. If you wire it in before the A/B relay you wouldn't need the on/off relay for the converter. When the shore power plug was pulled the A/B relay would switch to inverter input and power down the shore power line (and the converter) to that point.

Any input to the DC system (from converter or alternator) varies the voltage in the entire DC wiring continuum. Anything attached to the battery bank will get battery voltage whatever that voltage happens to be at the time. A 12v system is rarely at 12 volts and will work fine from 11 to 15 volts.
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Old 02-23-2016, 04:15 PM   #31
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gotchya, good info, thanks
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Old 02-23-2016, 04:49 PM   #32
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Throw another relay pole in there for bridging the AC neutral and ground only when the inverter is providing the power.
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:36 PM   #33
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Always love the wiring discussions and have talked to many sparkles myself about my build.
It might take a little physical effort like using plug in types to change around?
I wasn't thinking as cheap as possible I was thinking if the bus didn't start then it was a problem with the bus, if the 12v lights or whatever didn't work then it was a problem with the 12v system and if the 120 house power didn't work then it is within in power to the house (shore/generator)?
I do not want the house 12 or 120 no matter the amps to drain my starting up and moving my mobile house home to diagnose the problem. If my 12 don't work then I look at the batteries and charger or the 12v fuse panel I made and if the 120 panel don't work at the same time as the 12 charger then I know it is external and if one goes and not the other then it is internal to a specific system and not both and if I can't figure out the stuff I built then I can start up and go to wherever I feel I need to fix or better diagnose?
It is cheaper in the long run to keep everything seperate and use plug in plug's and actually know what is plugged in and what is not instead of trying to find/diagnose/hunt down/figure out which switch,charger,relay,converter,inverter,panel board with a bad rocker switch, wiring connection,disconnection? Ain't for me
Keep it seperate and don't over engineer it or (in my opinion ) you will be cursing later.
Cheap engineering means you have to do more than plug it in and walk away? But we are only talking about 3-4 seperate plugs that needs to fit the proper plug in and please don't try to make a (correct me if i am wrong) 30-amp twist lock fit in a 50-amp twist! It does not take much and everything is fried when you do unless your breaker panel is oversized and then your 120 is fried. The old converter/inverter is probably the good but put it where you can get to it and leave space for an up grade?
My build is the KISS method and of course electrical and painting are not my strong points? I know a lot more elect. Than I do paint. One thing I have done right is my wife and will never ask me to paint anything again. I get the primer and sandpaper but I can't do anything for finish
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:38 PM   #34
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I screwed up the happy dance? I only wanted it at the end and not the start? Sorry
I hate paint and it hates me
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:09 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by family wagon View Post
Throw another relay pole in there for bridging the AC neutral and ground only when the inverter is providing the power.
Good point. I hadn't thought about switching the neutrals.
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:11 AM   #36
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I had considered the extra poles for neutrals, however im not sure what you mean by only when the inverter is providing power..

here is what I have drawn now
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Old 02-24-2016, 03:06 PM   #37
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Your last post isn't showing any image; maybe its URL got broken.

Per "generally accepted electrical procedures" an AC power system should have an energized line conductor, a neutral conductor, and a safety ground conductor. Normally we think of the line as supplying the power to the load and the neutral as returning the current back to the source, brushing aside the "alternating" part of alternating current. The safety ground shouldn't carry any current in the normal case. But in order for it to provide any safety, there ultimately has to be a connection (a "bond") between the ground and the neutral conductors so that current can flow via the ground conductor back to the source during a fault.

For semi-technical reasons the neutral-ground bond should exist in only one place in each electrical system. In regular grid-connected electrical systems like our homes, an RV campground, etc that connection is made in the main circuit breaker panel. If somebody were to create a duplicate bond by wiring an RV with its neutral and ground connected together and plugging it into the home or campground system, it could cause a range of nuisance problems including GFI breaker/outlet tripping, or it could cause no apparent problems at all, or it could cause more serious/dangerous problems. So we just don't do that.

However, when the RV is plugged into an independent source of power like an inverter or generator, the ground-neutral bond probably won't be provided. Most (all?) generators I'm aware of do not have a ground-neutral bond factory installed and I presume the same for hard-wired inverters. Not sure about plug-in style inverters (check their manuals).

As a general rule, when using a portable power source you'll need to take care of the ground-neutral bond yourself. In another thread here on skoolie.net Mike Sokol proposed a clever bond plug: a standard replacement male cord end with a jumper between ground and neutral. When plugging the RV into a generator or inverter, plug the bond plug into the other socket on the generator/inverter. That works well for the plug-style connection, but when things are built in and hard-wired, I suggest the ground-neutral (un-)bonding should be done through the same action that operates the rest of the transfer switch.
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Old 02-24-2016, 03:23 PM   #38
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with the way i have laid it out, i have not done anything to bond the neutral and ground... if I had an extra pole on my relay it seems like I could just send it to the ground of the inverter/shore power
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Old 02-24-2016, 03:32 PM   #39
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Sure, if there were an unused pole that would be a great use for it. Maybe the SPDT at the converter input could be changed to DPDT for little additional cost, or just add another of those Tyco relays at the $10-ish cost. I'm waffling a little about the switch in the neutrals -- I can't give a reason why it's a bad idea, nor do I see it as being necessary. You could perhaps free a relay pole by not switching the neutrals.
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Old 02-24-2016, 03:42 PM   #40
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I dont see how it would work to not connect the neutrals - I am very in experienced with ac stuff but i thought it flowed from + to neutral, and ground is there in case.. so if i dont switch the neutral then what would it be wired too?
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