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Old 11-04-2016, 02:20 PM   #21
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I was just looking at my floor thinking of the shop space in the rear. I don't want anything I can spill say oil on and it soak in. I like the idea of just treating it like its a cement garage floor and laying down some anti slip paint. Then I can mop it wipe it down or just clean it and repaint later.

In the lving quarters side i have yet to here of this story of foam crushing. What foam are we speaking of and what PSI PSF. I was planning on spray foam on the walls roof and the board stuff installed just Like the mudda earth video.

I'm not planning on going any where cold at all. So the shop area I'm not worried about all that much. The roof and walls were going to be for the condensation and air conditioning.

Am I doing this wrong? Its like we need a thread added for cold climate and warm climate.
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:23 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Geo Jeff View Post
I'm not planning on going any where cold at all. So the shop area I'm not worried about all that much. The roof and walls were going to be for the condensation and air conditioning.

Am I doing this wrong? Its like we need a thread added for cold climate and warm climate.
Insulation isn't just for cold climates... You're gonna need it to keep heat out and air conditioning in...
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo Jeff View Post
I was just looking at my floor thinking of the shop space in the rear. I don't want anything I can spill say oil on and it soak in. I like the idea of just treating it like its a cement garage floor and laying down some anti slip paint. Then I can mop it wipe it down or just clean it and repaint later.

In the lving quarters side i have yet to here of this story of foam crushing. What foam are we speaking of and what PSI PSF. I was planning on spray foam on the walls roof and the board stuff installed just Like the mudda earth video.

I'm not planning on going any where cold at all. So the shop area I'm not worried about all that much. The roof and walls were going to be for the condensation and air conditioning.

Am I doing this wrong? Its like we need a thread added for cold climate and warm climate.
A bare garage is a good idea though I will probably insulate mine to keep my batteries a little toastier. As for the foam crushing or not ... it's probably fine in most cases but there's a reason professional contractors frame a floor. I just don't understand why people are reinventing the wheel. Framing a floor is not a new concept. That insulation is really not designed to take the weight of a counter/fridge/stove/whatever else you're piling on it. Rigid foam is hard to squish but as you compress it you lose insulation value. Same goes for fiberglass -- it's rated to what it says only assuming you leave an appropriate air gap, and only assuming you are framing it in 2x4's. If you frame it in metal you get roughly half the R value. How do you think that'll look after years of use? I know there are differing opinions on the subject but why skip such an easy step? It's a shortcut. I don't see the advantage.
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warewolff View Post
As for the foam crushing or not ... it's probably fine in most cases but there's a reason professional contractors frame a floor. I just don't understand why people are reinventing the wheel. Framing a floor is not a new concept. That insulation is really not designed to take the weight of a counter/fridge/stove/whatever else you're piling on it. Rigid foam is hard to squish but as you compress it you lose insulation value.
You gotta believe me on this: with a proper subfloor of 5/8" or 3/4" plywood or OSB you will not squash XPS foam. Try as you might, it will not compress. In fact, it's common practice these days to lay XPS rigid foam (of the proper density) down before pouring concrete for basements, parking garages, industrial complexes you name it. All you need to keep XPS from crushing is the proper sandwich. It can't go directly on floor studs because the weight isn't well distributed. But put a layer of plywood down, then XPS, then a plywood subfloor and it won't crush. If the XPS is crushing you're probably driving a steam-roller indoors, which has it's own set of problems.

If you happen to be extra paranoid about the foam crushing then denser XPS sheets can be purchased. Money better spent than framing, in my opinion. The most common densities are 15 and 30psi, but it goes up to 100psi (Foamular goes that high, anyhow)

Framing is actually counter productive to the task of insulating. You create a thermal bridge which can transfer heat. It's also more work and money, but with no pay-back. Around here professional framers do not frame the floor before laying XPS. It's a common upgrade to put XPS on a concrete basement floor then plywood then the flooring of choice.


30psi XPS. That means the XPS can definitely take 30 pounds in one square inch before it starts to crush. Now take a 4'x8' piece of 3/4" thick plywood. If the plywood had zero flex (which it doesn't..) a piece of XPS under that piece of plywood can hold 138240 lbs.

The math:
48"x96" = 4608 sq in.
4608 sq in * 30psi = 138240 lbs.

Of course, the plywood has some flex so it's not quite that high, but it's still pretty freakin' high.


Just my opinion. People have done it many different ways without having their bus spontaneously combust.
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:42 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jazty View Post
You gotta believe me on this: with a proper subfloor of 5/8" or 3/4" plywood or OSB you will not squash XPS foam. Try as you might, it will not compress. In fact, it's common practice these days to lay XPS rigid foam (of the proper density) down before pouring concrete for basements, parking garages, industrial complexes you name it. All you need to keep XPS from crushing is the proper sandwich. It can't go directly on floor studs because the weight isn't well distributed. But put a layer of plywood down, then XPS, then a plywood subfloor and it won't crush. If the XPS is crushing you're probably driving a steam-roller indoors, which has it's own set of problems.

If you happen to be extra paranoid about the foam crushing then denser XPS sheets can be purchased. Money better spent than framing, in my opinion. The most common densities are 15 and 30psi, but it goes up to 100psi (Foamular goes that high, anyhow)

Framing is actually counter productive to the task of insulating. You create a thermal bridge which can transfer heat. It's also more work and money, but with no pay-back. Around here professional framers do not frame the floor before laying XPS. It's a common upgrade to put XPS on a concrete basement floor then plywood then the flooring of choice.


30psi XPS. That means the XPS can definitely take 30 pounds in one square inch before it starts to crush. Now take a 4'x8' piece of 3/4" thick plywood. If the plywood had zero flex (which it doesn't..) a piece of XPS under that piece of plywood can hold 138240 lbs.

The math:
48"x96" = 4608 sq in.
4608 sq in * 30psi = 138240 lbs.

Of course, the plywood has some flex so it's not quite that high, but it's still pretty freakin' high.


Just my opinion. People have done it many different ways without having their bus spontaneously combust.
Where are you from? That math might've changed my opinion as my heaviest items wouldn't even cause an issue. Though, honestly, I haven't seen this done in ANY residential project I've worked on. Ever. Why are the pros in NY not using this method if it's as sound as that math looks? Structural stability perhaps?

Thermal bridging is not a big issue if you aren't nailing the frame into the floor. In fact the foam is rated WHEN FRAMED IN 2x4's. The theoretical R10 rating will differ based on your framing material.

I'll be back with a more informed opinion when I find out why this isn't a widespread thing in residential flooring here.
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:43 PM   #26
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I'll add, though, that for a car driving in and out over the same track repeatedly I'd frame where the wheels roll with a laid down 2x10 or the like. A car tire moving back and forth in the same spot would probably flex the whole bus floor and a 2x10 would stiffen it up a bit. I wouldn't frame for normal living spaces, though.
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warewolff View Post
Where are you from? That math might've changed my opinion. My heaviest items wouldn't even cause an issue. I haven't seen this done in ANY project I've worked on. Ever. Why are the pros in NY not using this method if it's as sound as that math looks? Structural stability maybe?

No idea why NY wouldn't be doing it.. I'm in Ontario, Canada and it's done everywhere. We're practically neighbours.

Up here XPS is like Frank's Red Hot: we put that **** under everything!



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Old 11-04-2016, 06:02 PM   #28
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Old 11-04-2016, 06:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazty View Post
You gotta believe me on this: with a proper subfloor of 5/8" or 3/4" plywood or OSB you will not squash XPS foam. Try as you might, it will not compress. In fact, it's common practice these days to lay XPS rigid foam (of the proper density) down before pouring concrete for basements, parking garages, industrial complexes you name it. All you need to keep XPS from crushing is the proper sandwich. It can't go directly on floor studs because the weight isn't well distributed. But put a layer of plywood down, then XPS, then a plywood subfloor and it won't crush. If the XPS is crushing you're probably driving a steam-roller indoors, which has it's own set of problems.

If you happen to be extra paranoid about the foam crushing then denser XPS sheets can be purchased. Money better spent than framing, in my opinion. The most common densities are 15 and 30psi, but it goes up to 100psi (Foamular goes that high, anyhow)

Framing is actually counter productive to the task of insulating. You create a thermal bridge which can transfer heat. It's also more work and money, but with no pay-back. Around here professional framers do not frame the floor before laying XPS. It's a common upgrade to put XPS on a concrete basement floor then plywood then the flooring of choice.


30psi XPS. That means the XPS can definitely take 30 pounds in one square inch before it starts to crush. Now take a 4'x8' piece of 3/4" thick plywood. If the plywood had zero flex (which it doesn't..) a piece of XPS under that piece of plywood can hold 138240 lbs.

The math:
48"x96" = 4608 sq in.
4608 sq in * 30psi = 138240 lbs.

Of course, the plywood has some flex so it's not quite that high, but it's still pretty freakin' high.


Just my opinion. People have done it many different ways without having their bus spontaneously combust.
right on! i put 1" foam down then 3/4 t&g advantec down, solid as sears! everything else including wheel wells was spray foamed.
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Old 11-04-2016, 06:32 PM   #30
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Lets face it, the housing industry is the slowest group to embrace new construction methods.
And residential contractors would still be building totally uninsulated housing if the local codes did not force them to do it.
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