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Old 01-31-2016, 01:57 AM   #81
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I will do whatever work is necessary to create a functional, safe, and mobile living environment that works for me and my purposes. My needs and desires will differ greatly from the needs and desires of others. There just isnt' any solid evidence to say the removal of steel will not affect structural integrity, and there is yet to be a bus converted in the apparently ideal way.... I want to be able to use the bus, going up and down logging roads and whatnot. I don't want it or the things I install in it to become loose (as detailed in a post by a fellow member who removed the panels and did not replace them with more steel). The idea of using a closed cell foam spray in after the interior skin and old insulation have been removed is tempting, and it has been suggested (and I agree) that this foam would increase the rigidity of the bus structure. But the question then becomes, with lots of movement would this foam loosen and break? It's definitely not steel. And would it off-gas next to metal in such high temperatures? I really haven't decided how exactly I'm going to do this yet, which is why I bring these things up. I see there is a lot of consensus in terms of the superiority of spray foam insulation, and the need to remove the old panels and insulation, but I see no example of this in a practical sense, and put to the test. Unless I'm missing something....

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Old 01-31-2016, 02:14 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Removing the interior panels doesn't harm stuctural integrity.
Gotta break eggs to make an omelette.
... and hey, if buses are eggs, I like mine hard-boiled. It looks deceptively like the others, keeps it's structure, and you can save it for later and it's still gonna be tasty. I can't put an omlette in my pocket, you know??
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Old 01-31-2016, 06:27 AM   #83
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A bluebird engineer still just designs what the govt specifies.
How many coaches come with metal INTERIOR PANELS? Thats all they are.
Sure, its riveted to the body, but if that 20 whatever gauge is a structural element then its surely a very minor one.
Besides who in here is carrying peoples kids for the state? If you're not, then i think its a bit asinine to keep the metal. Sure its easier...
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Old 01-31-2016, 06:33 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teambadass View Post
I will do whatever work is necessary to create a functional, safe, and mobile living environment that works for me and my purposes. My needs and desires will differ greatly from the needs and desires of others. There just isnt' any solid evidence to say the removal of steel will not affect structural integrity, and there is yet to be a bus converted in the apparently ideal way.... I want to be able to use the bus, going up and down logging roads and whatnot. I don't want it or the things I install in it to become loose (as detailed in a post by a fellow member who removed the panels and did not replace them with more steel). The idea of using a closed cell foam spray in after the interior skin and old insulation have been removed is tempting, and it has been suggested (and I agree) that this foam would increase the rigidity of the bus structure. But the question then becomes, with lots of movement would this foam loosen and break? It's definitely not steel. And would it off-gas next to metal in such high temperatures? I really haven't decided how exactly I'm going to do this yet, which is why I bring these things up. I see there is a lot of consensus in terms of the superiority of spray foam insulation, and the need to remove the old panels and insulation, but I see no example of this in a practical sense, and put to the test. Unless I'm missing something....
I have been hosting some kids staying in a bus they converted. They REALLY wish they had done the metal panel removal, but they wanted it done quicker.
Keep the metal, no one is making anyone remove it.
I'll be fulltiming and would hate a metal ceiling.

Your nose will thank you for fully converting a bus, too.
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Old 01-31-2016, 06:59 AM   #85
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And would it off-gas next to metal in such high temperatures?
Our vehicles are not airtight, like houses buttoned up for winter. They leak, for the most part. Any outgassing that spray foam will do (and yes, there are potential issues about isocyanates in spray foam particularly during application), will escape with the air that's leaking. I would, IMHO, take the isocyanates than mold. Go back to the very first page of this thread, and look at the mold infiltration in fiberglass batting. I peeled off another panel the other day in Capt Obvious, immediately aft of the emergency door. The fiberglass is heading for more black from mold than yellow; the panel next to it has the fiberglass rotting away.

For that very reason, I'm leaving my passive vent in place, and will probably place a computer fan to exhaust and turn it into an active vent. (It's also dry when it rains)


Quote:
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I have been hosting some kids staying in a bus they converted. They REALLY wish they had done the metal panel removal, but they wanted it done quicker.
Our friends from One Nation under Goat, I take it?
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Old 01-31-2016, 07:10 AM   #86
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Yes. They have a great bus, and they built it for a purpose which for which it serves them well. But they definitely said if they'd had the time and had wanted to do a long term build they would love to have removed all of the panels and fiberglass.
If its just a weekend machine, or if one is in a hurry to get out and see America, then by all means- just leave the stuff in and get to enjoying life.
There is no perfect bus for everyone. I really meant it when I said everyone has their own wants and needs!
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:01 PM   #87
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I peeled off another panel the other day in Capt Obvious, immediately aft of the emergency door. The fiberglass is heading for more black from mold than yellow; the panel next to it has the fiberglass rotting away.
Here's what I was talking about-

Tasty, tasty mold


More mold and decay-
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Old 01-31-2016, 12:47 PM   #88
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I really do appreciate the feedback from everyone. I will be toting a child around, my own, and I need the bus to be safe. It's super easy to discuss what works, what is ideal, but it's more of a challenge to dig into what isn't working/ what doesn't work with these conversions. I have no problem doing the work, but if the work I do compromises the bus, I don't want to do it... make sense? This is the only bus I have seen thus far with a full on spray foam insulation (http://wouldyoulookatthatbus.com/

I won't be doing a roof raise, and I won't be doing much integrated plumbing or propane. I wouldn't be adverse to insulating on top of the existing stuff and losing floor space if need be. I sent a message regarding the structure to the Bluebird bus corp., so hopefully they get back to me and I'll be able to put this question to rest once and for all! Thanks again for your input everyone.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:56 PM   #89
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Can I just remove panel, install insulation then put original panels back? Judging by video I watched, there seems to be enough space for R10 insulation padding, perhaps as deep as R20 or R30 fiberglass insulation. I would be very conservative selecting insulating material, use only traditional industry proven and widely available material.

There is a rivet like bolt, and to my guess, it's like rivet-ted nut so that screws can used, alleviating future removal of paneling to inspect fungus growth. Problem with fungus is not that it's difficult to terminate, but it's presence is unknown unless paneling is removed. Remove paneling, inspect for mold to take appropriate action, then place paneling where it belong with a screw driver.

Sheet metal paneling looks cool to me, much more appealing and safer than dry wall material commonly used on modern home consturction. Due to nature of how dry walls are made, it's just impossible to completely eliminate formaldehyde in its substance. I would much rather be exposed to fungus than a toxic glue like stuff used to bond paper material. I hear this stuff is everywhere in modern home building.

If I'm limited on financial resources, I would much rather focus on mechanical aspect of bus; make sure bus will be operable when needed the most. I can't imagine stuck in the middle of harsh winter and the bus can't be move to more livable region, or naively landed in a hostile region and can't be moved quickly due to mechanical failure.
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Old 01-31-2016, 03:31 PM   #90
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Kwang yi
You can do anything you want.
Money and time decides the extremes of your project. Do you want to be on the road a year after you buy then you spend money for someone to do it for you or are you in no hurry,have time to make decisions, and spend less money buy doing it yourself and education to support your final project.
You sound like a man trying to plan for every nut and bolt before you buy anything and I have been through some of that. I am a commercial building contractor and my wife is a residential architect so she designed the interior and I made it work wherever the sink or bed or stove is? Never been an engineer but can debate with most of them and my wife is doing good at here architect job. Everytime she ask me what I think I tell her the plumber,HVAC,not sparky is going to be happy but I know concrete and steel and she knows cad templates
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Old 01-31-2016, 03:44 PM   #91
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Can I just remove panel, install insulation then put original panels back? Judging by video I watched, there seems to be enough space for R10 insulation padding, perhaps as deep as R20 or R30 fiberglass insulation. I would be very conservative selecting insulating material, use only traditional industry proven and widely available material.

There is a rivet like bolt, and to my guess, it's like rivet-ted nut so that screws can used, alleviating future removal of paneling to inspect fungus growth. Problem with fungus is not that it's difficult to terminate, but it's presence is unknown unless paneling is removed. Remove paneling, inspect for mold to take appropriate action, then place paneling where it belong with a screw driver.

Sheet metal paneling looks cool to me, much more appealing and safer than dry wall material commonly used on modern home consturction. Due to nature of how dry walls are made, it's just impossible to completely eliminate formaldehyde in its substance. I would much rather be exposed to fungus than a toxic glue like stuff used to bond paper material. I hear this stuff is everywhere in modern home building.

If I'm limited on financial resources, I would much rather focus on mechanical aspect of bus; make sure bus will be operable when needed the most. I can't imagine stuck in the middle of harsh winter and the bus can't be move to more livable region, or naively landed in a hostile region and can't be moved quickly due to mechanical failure.
you could do as you say, but unfortunately the issues around metal causing condensation and fiber based insulation being an ideal breeding ground for mould and moisture issues, doing it this way just re-creates the original problem to begin with.

myself i am going to wait until I hear back from bluebird to make a decision. if the metal is indeed integral to roadworthy structure, i will elect to insulate and build within the parameters of the original skinning. i tend to favor wood walls over anything like drywall over here. like you, i am also concerned with the amount of space age plastics that I use in this construction. I'm just not into it, as I know far too much about the dangers of man-made toxins to pretend I don't....

and again, like you, i agree that the mechanical condition of the bus is of primary importance. Bulletproof insulation in a vehicle is only necessary if you can't move it or don't intend to.
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Old 02-01-2016, 11:54 AM   #92
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OK, so the reply from Bluebird came in, and the answer from them is definitive enough for me. Here is a copy and paste of the email:


Team Badass (name changed for privacy),

The interior inside side panels and interior steel headlining panels are part of the structural integrity of the bus and cannot be removed without affecting the strength of the body.

Thank you,

<image001.jpg> │ Justyne Lobello │ Product Communications & Marketing Manager │ Blue Bird Corporation │ Phone 478.822.2763 │ 402 Blue Bird Blvd, Fort Valley, Georgia 31030


Thanks Tango for bringing this up. Although many owners might still pull their wall panels and insulation, I'm not going to. I will insulate over top and see how it goes! Thanks for the input all.
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Old 02-01-2016, 11:59 AM   #93
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Here we go again. And I promise this will be the last time I post this. According to a retired Blue Bird engineer I consulted with years ago...both the exterior AND interior sheet metal panels are necessary to maintain overall structural integrity. Together they form a box beam effect in conjunction with the ribs.

I really would like to hear a real professional position on this subject and not more opinions or conjecture.

It is true Tango. Thank you for your persistence in this! Verified by the company itself
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:20 PM   #94
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So... the seats are technically part of the structural integrity too.
.0001% maybe.
OF course BB are going to go with the obvious cya answer. They never intended the buses to be used for this. DO Wanderlodges come with metal interior panels?
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:37 PM   #95
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So... the seats are technically part of the structural integrity too.
.0001% maybe.
OF course BB are going to go with the obvious cya answer. They never intended the buses to be used for this. DO Wanderlodges come with metal interior panels?
I need a tank, not a cushy padded cell. All of us have our unique needs... so to each their own I suppose.
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:58 PM   #96
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Up until I believe the mid-90's or so, Blue Bird Wanderlodges were built on exactly the same chassis, running gear & body as their All-American school buses. I know for a fact they all had the same sheet basic metal inside. Only big differences were the RV style windows and metal to accommodate them plus some shiny trim.

Good representation of their engineering about halfway down the BB owners forum here...(imagine what a stick & staple job would have looked like)...

FC VS Pusher - Page 5 - Wanderlodge Owners Group
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Old 02-01-2016, 05:12 PM   #97
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More I think about this modification, more I see the need to have accurate modeling of a bus. The reason is to eliminate guessing work, so I know what modified bus will look like evm before spending single penny on purchase of materials.

Luckily, I was able to sign with Autodesk and have the real stuffs to play around with different architectural concepts. Those who are not familiar with thier software, they cost like $2000/year for license. If you're student/faculty, Autodesk will let you have this software for nothing for three years. There are many demonstration in youtube channel, so see how you you like them. I haven't yet to find a good demonstration who really seem to understand computer modeling, but then, I never found anyone of any expertise coming on to youtube channel anyways. Most of the techniques demonstrated by publishers are more like beginners, meaning you can make it much better than anyone in youtube channel in short time.

If you can make yourself proficient in drafting, you can earn comfortable wages. Drafting is a good place to escape from miserable dead-end job for those young people who lacks desirable degrees yet have urges to participate in forefront of technology. In such way, you people don't need to go around and say, someone at some place told me one must be done one way only. You should be able to do whatever you want once you understand by reviewing their drawing/specifications, make yourself an authority in matter.
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Old 02-01-2016, 06:11 PM   #98
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This has been a great read and like many I've hemmed and hawed on the best path forward while reading what appear to be reasonable takes on this issue. I already removed the interior paneling and nasty insulation from my '88 Thomas (Newman Skoolie - http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/new-project-6893.html). I'll likely be full-timing so I know I wanted that insulation out of there. I did so not only because I'd seen so many other successful projects do so but also because it was the best way for me to remediate rust issues. I don't have a lot of rust but there were outside panels replaced by the school system before I bought her and I wanted to be sure. Thankfully other than in those areas there is essentially no rust.

I'm going to run down the middle of the road on this issue which I know will make you engineering types fume and you purists hostile(!). I think it is reasonable to assume (there's that word!) that the interior metal skin does add to the structural integrity (how could it not?) but I'm not convinced that it is so great as to require keeping it or one risks loosing their pride-n-joy altogether. I also believe high quality spray foam will add to the structural integrity but not by much. What tipped me over the top was planning to replace that interior sheet metal with 4x8 wainscoting panels, which, while not structural-grade plywood and not steel, will contribute *somewhat* to the structural loss of loosing the interior steel panels.

This, plus I am going to "wrap" the interior lengthwise with 3" strips of 3/4" plywood and then spray foam the entire depth prior to fastening the finish wainscoting to the plywood strips. All of this combined will make up some of the structural loss of removing the interior steel, but I believe the loss is small enough to begin with that what I'll end up with will be sound enough.

Also, for an effective vapor barrier I plan to fully coat the interior of the structure with elostomeric paint that will fill in and coat all surfaces prior to spraying in the foam. By the time I get to the wainscoting I *should* have a pretty sound structure that may be slightly less so than the original but certainly sound and ultimately very livable...I hope!

Thoughts?
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:46 AM   #99
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Maybe someone should ask AmTran the same sort of question. I cant see how that perforated stuff would AT ALL be "structural".

My thoughts, Newmans_ GO for it.

I've been driving my metal tent shell around here and there and it hasn't seemed to mind the bumpy as hell half mile long "driveway" or anything. once I weld in some bracing with the roof raise it will likely be much stronger than it ever was, but that doesn't at all bother me.
I have more than a couple different friends around here in buses with the factory fiberglass and metal ceilings left in, and I just don't at all find that to be comfortable or livable for my wants and needs, so getting rid of the source of mold and the metal panels isn't even a question.
This thread is great, and I don't at all mind differences of opinion. I think we've all been keeping it civil as it should be. Its been nice on here lately, eh?

For the amount of living in the bus vs driving the bus I'll be doing, I know that the .000001% structure integrity loss will never even cross my mind other than in conversations such as this.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:04 PM   #100
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Good point EastCoastCB,

I completely forgot to mention that I also intend to add structural framing after my roof raise not only in the ceiling but also in the walls to compensate for the removed interior panels as well as the additional height (for additional wind load, etc.). Might as well as I'm in there, right?


One other thing I'm doing that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere yet (and may not belong on this thread) is my intention to double stack some of the removed windows in the forward seating area. That way we'll all have better views of the mountains, waterfalls, rainbows, and unicorns on our way to Shangri La. Doing that will absolutely require additional framing.
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