Insulation and Mold Links - Page 6

Tango · 02-02-2016, 12:27 PM

Roger that. Good plan. On my old BB I added a large (about 60" x 36") RV window up front on the passenger side. It was double framed with 1/8" wall 1-1/2" square tube all around. Gotta transfer that load somewhere as best you can.

Jman6631 · 02-02-2016, 04:42 PM

Yes, and if I find a deal on RV windows I'll take them and frame as you describe but if not I'll re-use the ones I remove from elsewhere on the project. I would really like to install better windows but 1) I like reusing what I can, and 2) I'm too cheap.

I know, I know, get rid of the crap and put in the efficient windows already. I might, depending on what kind of deal I can find and how well the project is going budget-wise.

teambadass · 02-02-2016, 06:36 PM

I applaud all you folks who have the skills and the time to cut, weld, re-rivet, etc. I think it's ossum. These things really depend on one a) having the skills/tools, b) what the bus will be used for and where... And it's also personal preference! Some people are totally ok with new technologies like spray foam, and some of us would rather wrap ourselves in lamb skins and call it a day! I think the variety of ideas and solutions to various challenges here is excellent.

Jman6631 · 02-03-2016, 06:21 PM

I also forgot to mention that I plan to "glue-n-screw" all of my connections. That is, I will glue the strapping to the rib framing AND sheet metal screw it to said framing. I will also glue AND screw the ceiling panels to said strapping. I will also glue and screw all of the interior framing together. AND I'm going to loctite every other screw, bolt and nut I install, especially on the electrical and plumbing gear.

My bus seems to rattle a lot and I don't want to risk an electrical fire or other such mishap when it's so easy to also apply an adhesive. I got this from Hobie Cat ownership and all the upkeep required, and also from building wooden surf and paddle boards. I also know master joinery guys who ALWAYS use glue along with their fasteners.

Anyway...

Knight Rat · 02-24-2016, 10:43 PM

I love the idea of knowing all you can know before beginning a project, however, I am also OCD like that. If I don't just rip something out it will never get done. For 23yrs. I kept a car I wanted to restore and I always said if it couldn't be done right, it wasn't going to get done. Nothing I don't know about that car. Could build it in my sleep. But it never got done. I never had the heart to tear it down. Someone else owns it now & occasionally I see it the local car show. My two cents is, "Just do it, before you don't.!"

Canned Ham · 03-31-2016, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight Rat

I love the idea of knowing all you can know before beginning a project, however, I am also OCD like that. If I don't just rip something out it will never get done. For 23yrs. I kept a car I wanted to restore and I always said if it couldn't be done right, it wasn't going to get done. Nothing I don't know about that car. Could build it in my sleep. But it never got done. I never had the heart to tear it down. Someone else owns it now & occasionally I see it the local car show. My two cents is, "Just do it, before you don't.!"

I'm dithering with that same problem with an 89 4runner I want to restore, but lately I'm taking a realistic look at the fact that I don't have the tools, or the money, and unless I win a lottery, the money will never change. I'm toying with the idea of selling it and let someone else enjoy it, even if it does get turned into a rock crawler.

A bus would be more likely to happen than a restoration of the '89 Toy.

Meanwhile, I'm studying this thread pretty close for the great info on insulation.

EastCoastCB · 03-31-2016, 06:49 PM

I feel old, folks restore cars made when I was 9!

Robin97396 · 03-31-2016, 07:56 PM

You feel old? I was 32 when that 4runner was made.

EastCoastCB · 03-31-2016, 09:48 PM

Fair enough.

joeblack5 · 04-09-2016, 03:51 PM

5 years ago I build a metal barn and insulated that with density 2.0 closed cell spray foam directly against the metal. walls 4" and roof 6". I wanted to get an insulated building with a much higher structural integrity. All metal panels were installed on 1/2 foam blocks as to reduce thermal leaks.

half a year ago I decided that i wanted a window in a side wall and with an angle grinder cut thru the outer layer and try to peel the metal of the foam. I was , i would say extremely pleased that that was very very hard. We started in a corner with crowbars.

I recently took the roof sheeting of my house and installed purlins and a metal roof and based on the positive experience with my barn spray foamed the interior and gained a much better structural strength by bonding everything together.

I would think that removing the metal inner skin would definitely compromise the designed strength of the side walls and roof and if i look at the seats of our little corbeil bus then it is obvious that the seat frames are used to brace the sidewall against side impact.

That does not mean that you could not remove any of that as long as you realize and are comfortable that the specification have changed.

For me, I will bring the metal sidewall in about an 1.5" and make a temporary plywood wall to keep the inner side wall and outer side wall straight and carefull fill the space between with closed cell foam that can be poured as to adhere everything together and improve on the original design specification.
That closed cell foam is often used in boats to fill up voids and give it garantied buoyancy in case of hull penetration.

Later J

Robin97396 · 04-09-2016, 04:46 PM

I am all for buoyancy, even in a bus. It's a little gruesome, but if you've ever watched buses in the tsunami videos they actually float pretty good already. Buses slide along like a cardboard box. Then there's those floating full size motor homes.
I plan to insulate with foam but I hadn't thought of pouring it into those cavities in the wall. Those spray foam kits seem to be exorbitantly expensive considering the coverage. My understanding is that it would be cheaper to have a professional spray insulation compared to the do it yourself kits.

joeblack5 · 04-09-2016, 05:33 PM

Hi Robin, Yeah that would be funny. The main advantage that you are creating a sandwich like a Sip panel, Structural Insulated Panel, the disadvantage is that it would not be easy to get back into the wall for wiring or other changes. So you have to have stuff thought out before you start pouring. Having no draft no internal condensation, no rattling and superior strength is appealing to me.
I have installed blue board insulation between studs with 3/8 gap all around and used great stuff to glue it in place and that is good for racking strength but being able to bond the outer skin and inner skin together creates the perfect box. that is why hollow core doors are so light and strong with just cardboard and glue. I imagine gluing blue board against the outer skin and then gluing the inner skin against the blueboard would give good results as well as long as you can lay a nice uniform grind of glue. Besides the strength of metal it also has a big advantage that it does not burn. the spray foam or pour foam itself will give very toxic fumes if it burns so it is better to have a metal barrier
in place and even better if oxygen cannot get to the foam. A proper glued sandwich accomplishes all of that.

later j

Robin97396 · 04-09-2016, 06:29 PM

Yeah, at first I assumed I could punch holes in the interior paneling and basically inject foam in between the inner and outer skins. It's been tried. The old yellow glass insulation blocks the flow of the foam. I can't see where that's a problem because you can punch a hole every 6 or 10 inches if you need to. Then you can keep your inner metal sheeting and build out from there.

Are you spraying foam on the underside of your floors?

joeblack5 · 04-09-2016, 07:47 PM

Ha, not really, I will try to lift the plywood and slide 1-1/2" blueboard under it. But then in the walk area I will try to cut and drop the floor 6" almost in between the frame rails as to create more headroom and lower center of gravity. I need to get 2x4 steel tube and weld that back under the C-channels that I need to cut but I think that is for another thread.

later J

Robin97396 · 04-09-2016, 07:52 PM

That sounds interesting. So you're going to lower the bowling alley to the height of the bottom of the frame?

family wagon · 04-09-2016, 08:24 PM

Dropping the floor between the frame rails seems like a great idea. Before you get too far along with it though, check the structure under the floor. I don't know what your coach work looks like, but mine has U-shape channels laid perpendicular over the top of the frame rails. The floor, the walls, and really the whole body are built on top of these. If the middle section were removed in an arrangement like what I have, probably the outboard edges of the floor would sag (at least).

joeblack5 · 04-09-2016, 08:50 PM

Familywagon you are right.
I posted my plan under my Shortbus Elf bus thread to not hijack the mold and insulation thread.

later J

kmwann · 05-03-2016, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teambadass

The interior inside side panels and interior steel headlining panels are part of the structural integrity of the bus and cannot be removed without affecting the strength of the body.

Thank you,

Justyne Lobello │ Product Communications & Marketing Manager │ Blue Bird Corporation │ Phone 478.822.2763 │ 402 Blue Bird Blvd, Fort Valley, Georgia 31030

I would like to chime in here, because I'm an engineer... I find this response from Blue Bird to be a bit inadequate. Engineers like numbers-- in order to mean anything, we need numbers on which to base our decisions. Lacking numbers, this response could mean anything... What I suspect they are saying with their response is this:

"We rate the structural integrity of the bus to be ____ for torsion/shear/strain/etc., and by removing the interior side panels and headlining panels, the bus no longer satisfies the threshold criteria to meet our structural integrity guideline. Therefore, it 'has no structural integrity.' "

What I would really like as a response is a numerical answer: how MUCH does it change the strength of the body? Give me torsion/shear/strain 3D analysis. I suspect that by replacing the panels with new paneling (even wood), and placing interior walls and things as most skoolies do, the structural integrity has not actually been diminished very much. Perhaps, it is even strengthened, depending on what exactly is done. Placing interior walls, specifically, would improve the torsion and strain on the vehicle body. That's my input. Hope it's helpful.

Tango · 05-03-2016, 09:45 PM

Cannot quote any numbers cause I never got any. But what Mr. Lobello said above is just what I was told about 20 years ago by a retired Blue Bird engineer in Georgia while I was doing a roof raise on mine. That is...the interior sheet metal is a major component contributing to the units overall structural integrity and should not be removed. What he talked about was the "boxing" effect that the metal on two sides of the ribs created. I doubt BB ever ran any numbers w/o the interior metal but did do the necessary calculations when they designed the original body system.

EastCoastCB · 05-04-2016, 06:08 AM

Like I said before... If we're all waiting on permission from a manufacturer why are we even here?
No hotrod builder is asking chevy or ford if its ok to modify a car.

No manufacturer is gonna say " yeah we think its ok for you to modify it".
Yoy have a beautiful bus, Tango, but that bus was NEVER designed for ANY of the mods you've done.
Please don't kill our roof raising fun with CYA legal statements from the manufacturer!

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