Insulation and Mold Links

[crazycal]

Originally Posted by kmwann

I would like to chime in here, because I'm an engineer... I find this response from Blue Bird to be a bit inadequate. Engineers like numbers-- in order to mean anything, we need numbers on which to base our decisions. Lacking numbers, this response could mean anything... What I suspect they are saying with their response is this:

"We rate the structural integrity of the bus to be ____ for torsion/shear/strain/etc., and by removing the interior side panels and headlining panels, the bus no longer satisfies the threshold criteria to meet our structural integrity guideline. Therefore, it 'has no structural integrity.' "

What I would really like as a response is a numerical answer: how MUCH does it change the strength of the body? Give me torsion/shear/strain 3D analysis. I suspect that by replacing the panels with new paneling (even wood), and placing interior walls and things as most skoolies do, the structural integrity has not actually been diminished very much. Perhaps, it is even strengthened, depending on what exactly is done. Placing interior walls, specifically, would improve the torsion and strain on the vehicle body. That's my input. Hope it's helpful.

Kemosabe, you speak with forked tongue. You ask for numbers from their engineers but make a statement without backing it up WITH numbers. If you want to modify you bus, go ahead and do it. Don't try and pretend that you are strengthening the bus by removing structural components.

[dan-fox]

Originally Posted by crazycal

Kemosabe, you speak with forked tongue. You ask for numbers from their engineers but make a statement without backing it up WITH numbers. If you want to modify you bus, go ahead and do it. Don't try and pretend that you are strengthening the bus by removing structural components.

He said "Perhaps". That's sufficient for me.

I'm with the majority here; I'm willing to hack into the ol' girl and put my eggs in the "use her gently and she'll do just fine" basket. But it's functionally impossible for any of us to determine it numerically and the manufacturers are not gonna open-source their FEA code. So it becomes a matter of a few old men arguing a point ad infinitum on the porch of the general store. They enjoy the argument; so should we.

Who knows? "Perhaps" my plan to put in horizontal lintel-style reinforcements where I cut ribs for big windows will make a local section too stiff and transfer more stress and load than it should to adjacent areas. I dunno. I'm going to do it and hope I never roll-test the result.

[kmwann]

dan-fox is right-- I can't run an accurate analysis without very detailed specs from the manufacturer, which I'm sure they wouldn't provide. I was simply putting forth an alternate argument to continue the dialogue. I'm willing to accept whatever answer is correct on this point, but right now I don't have enough evidence to know one way or the other. I think it's an important topic, and a conversation we should continue to have. After all, for all of our time and money, we still need safe vehicles... Glad to be part of your community, looking forward to good future dialogue.

[Robin97396]

Would anyone like to submit some crash test vehicles?

[crazycal]

I am not recommending that people not modify their buses. To me it's a personal choice. Do as you please and live or don't with your choice. I get angry with members that say just do it. It won't harm anything or you without backing it up with facts. They didn't design the bus. While some may be engineers, most are not. You don't actually know what you think you know.

[GreyCoyote]

My 2 cents: I think the moment we took the seats out, we left the technical-spec reservation as far as the manufacturers are concerned. From there on out, its just shades and phases of how far we went.

Fortunately for us these busses are massively over-engineered for our purposes. They once held a very precious cargo (kids), and because a bunch of jury arguments were won that essentially said "so Mr. Bus Engineer, for less than 1000 lbs more metal, and $100 worth of labor, and $20 worth of fasteners, 71 kids would still be alive today", they have become progressively more sound. When defense lawyers tell the bean counters to loosen the designers purse strings, suddenly some very gifted engineers get to do great work.

We skoolies eventually benefit from that. We routinely exploit this over-built nature to our good advantage. I would wager the worst roof-raise of a 1990's era bus is still vastly stronger than a brand new Winnebago. Is that an excuse to get seriously stupid and make obviously dangerous calls? No. But we might want to consider a little tolerance for "outside-the-box" thinkers. Left-brain stuff, with some right-brain guidance, can be totally amazing if the builder is brave enough to try.

On that note, I REALLY hope Chief Dan Fox shares some of his incredible work in "other" mechanical areas. I'm not going to blow his cover, but the lad is a damned legend for making some seriously big and expensive stuff that moves and makes you go "WOW" in the middle of the desert. None of this would ever have seen the light of day if he had listened to many of the nay-saying armchair quarterbacks.

There might be a lesson here... or it might be this nice glass of wine. You decide.

[JA Savage]

I guess the key here is the difference between recommending what other people should do with their conversions and deciding what you want to try with your conversion. You pay the price if you weaken it and that is your problem, but making suggestions for other people could lead to a bad situation for them if you are incorrect.

[dan-fox]

Originally Posted by GreyCoyote

On that note, I REALLY hope Chief Dan Fox shares some of his incredible work in "other" mechanical areas. I'm not going to blow his cover, but the lad is a damned legend for making some seriously big and expensive stuff that moves and makes you go "WOW" in the middle of the desert. None of this would ever have seen the light of day if he had listened to many of the nay-saying armchair quarterbacks.

Ummmmm... I'd like to meet him too. The guy sounds interesting.

I've met 9 other Dan Foxes, but none of them meet that spec. I'm a private pilot and a good software engineer (if I do say so myself), and in an earlier life I designed and installed high end home and auditorium sound systems, but I've never been in the desert and I've never made anything larger than a 24' cabover box truck full of PA gear move.

[GreyCoyote]

Originally Posted by dan-fox

Ummmmm... I'd like to meet him too. The guy sounds interesting.

I've met 9 other Dan Foxes, but none of them meet that spec. I'm a private pilot and a good software engineer (if I do say so myself), and in an earlier life I designed and installed high end home and auditorium sound systems, but I've never been in the desert and I've never made anything larger than a 24' cabover box truck full of PA gear move.

Whoops. Wrong Dan Fox, but you guys could be twins.

Your evil twin did this a couple of years ago: "alien seige machine"

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5557/1...3ca69a6a_b.jpg

[Tango]

Ohhh...THAT Dan Fox.

No place like Burning Man to find wacky geniuses.

[GreyCoyote]

Originally Posted by Tango

Ohhh...THAT Dan Fox.

No place like Burning Man to find wacky geniuses.

Dudes a freakin' legend in Burner circles!

Warning: thread drift.

[dan-fox]

Originally Posted by Tango

Ohhh...THAT Dan Fox.

No place like Burning Man to find wacky geniuses.

Holy Mother of Pearl! I'm humbly proud to share a name with the guy who built that. Now _there_ is a Maker.

[Robin97396]

Is that for changing street lights?

[lheimer]

I am working on a bus conversion with my fiancé. We didn't even know that there is insulation in the sides. So I understand that you take the siding off and remove the molding insulation, but what is the best way to fix it after that? Just put new insulation in? Is there a way to find where it was leaking and seal it? I'm not the handiest of people but I'm enjoying learning!

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by lheimer

I am working on a bus conversion with my fiancé. We didn't even know that there is insulation in the sides. So I understand that you take the siding off and remove the molding insulation, but what is the best way to fix it after that? Just put new insulation in? Is there a way to find where it was leaking and seal it? I'm not the handiest of people but I'm enjoying learning!

Put in foam or something that won't harbor the mold, and seal everything up really well.

[Robin97396]

Once you have the panels off and remove the insulation it should be apparent where the leaks are, if any. Looking at the insulation as you remove it will change color and tell you where the leaks are. Most of it should be in the lower part of the wall cavities but you may find some in the ceiling too.
It's highly favored to use spray foam insulation while the walls and ceiling are open. It seals quite well and helps to avoid condensation. Additional rigid insulation is usually also added depending on how extreme of a climate you're designing it for.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Robin97396

Once you have the panels off and remove the insulation it should be apparent where the leaks are, if any. Looking at the insulation as you remove it will change color and tell you where the leaks are. Most of it should be in the lower part of the wall cavities but you may find some in the ceiling too.
It's highly favored to use spray foam insulation while the walls and ceiling are open. It seals quite well and helps to avoid condensation. Additional rigid insulation is usually also added depending on how extreme of a climate you're designing it for.

The ceilings hid the worst of the funk.

[Jman6631]

You should also seriously consider "strapping" it before installing the spray in insulation and inside panels. Strapping is attaching either 1x4 or 2x4's, depending on your climate and insulation requirements, the full length of the bus from front to back every 12" or so from one chair rail, around the ceiling, to the other chair rail. Then you spray the foam into that deeper cavity.

You get superior R value and solid attachment points for your buildout, and you do so without creating the "thermal bridge" to the exterior.


On mine I'm going to remediate the rust I have and then paint the entire interior in rustoleum primer. Then I'm going to paint that over with elastomeric paint (like I'll use in the roof) to seal it all up permanently, then I'll hit it with the foam.


THAT should do it!

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Jman6631

You should also seriously consider "strapping" it before installing the spray in insulation and inside panels. Strapping is attaching either 1x4 or 2x4's, depending on your climate and insulation requirements, the full length of the bus from front to back every 12" or so from one chair rail, around the ceiling, to the other chair rail. Then you spray the foam into that deeper cavity.

You get superior R value and solid attachment points for your buildout, and you do so without creating the "thermal bridge" to the exterior.


On mine I'm going to remediate the rust I have and then paint the entire interior in rustoleum primer. Then I'm going to paint that over with elastomeric paint (like I'll use in the roof) to seal it all up permanently, then I'll hit it with the foam.


THAT should do it!

I'm finishing up on that very course of action with my bus now.
VERY good plan. But go to tractor supply and get some of this hardener-

Works great and makes the rustoleum dry faster and harder.
I'm finishing up priming the entire ceilings today... SO glad to be done with that!
Once i got everything down to bare metal I used Ospho. Then Rustoleum rusty metal primer, and I'm going to spray some sort of topcoat just for the eff of it. Theres some white outdoor stuff made for propane tanks that's on sale at tractor supply right now, so I'm thinking I'll go with that.

[Jman6631]

EastCoastCB: Thanks for this catalyst tip! I picked some of this up at Tractor Supply, my first time there, and it worked beautifully.

I went ahead and used the full container to the gallon. It was a little late to start, 5pm, but I enlisted my kids and we went for it.

I ended up painting until 10pm so that I wouldn't waste any. With the outside done I still had about a quart left so I moved inside and used the rest on the interior framing and panels until I ran out.

As advertised it went on very smooth and set up well. It needed to because I was getting rain overnight and I wanted it done. This morning I took a look at it and for a first coat it really looks good. It laid down very smooth and the flat area we rollered ended up with just enough of a nice, subtle texture while the rub rails that we brushed looked smooth as glass. GREAT stuff!



Thanks again!