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Old 04-14-2013, 01:48 AM   #31
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by bansil
Indeed....

If you want to see the list of the reported electrocution drownings that are known to have occurred, go to

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php ... 9#comments

It's so sad since many of these situations should have been obvious and would have been preventable with proper inspection. I'm working with the author of this article, Dave Rifken to develop simple testing methods for use around freshwater docks. Remember, any boat or dock with a power pedestal is a potential voltage gradient generator, so swimming within 50 to 100 feet of it could cause limb paralysis and drowning. And if you see someone in distress in the water near a freshwater dock with a hot-skin boat or conduit in the area, jumping in to save them could result in your own drowning. It's pretty scary...

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Old 04-14-2013, 05:39 AM   #32
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

Mike, PM sent!
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:32 PM   #33
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

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Originally Posted by bansil
Mike, PM sent!
I've replied to your PM. Could make a good subject for an extended article.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:14 PM   #34
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

I am curious about the answer,several contractors and such said the would do it the same way.
I would like to chat with you on the phone if possible,it's busy next week or so,let me know.

I am curious if I "spoke" correctly of if we are on 2 different shets of music(I re-read my pm and it may be confusing)

Thankyou for your help,and the benefit others get from it
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:36 PM   #35
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by bansil
I am curious about the answer,several contractors and such said the would do it the same way.
I would like to chat with you on the phone if possible,it's busy next week or so,let me know.
I am curious if I "spoke" correctly of if we are on 2 different sheets of music (I re-read my pm and it may be confusing)
Thankyou for your help,and the benefit others get from it
I have some time to talk on the phone this Friday for the following Monday. After that it's getting busy around here as I prep for final exams (I'm an adjunct professor).

But I've re-read your PM, and believe my evaluation of your grounding situation is correct. However, I could be reading something wrong in your text. We'll chat and I'll make sure to get my head wrapped around what you're talking about. But I would like to post whatever we figure out here on open forum since it could affect a lot of other bus builders.

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Old 04-17-2013, 07:58 AM   #36
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

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Originally Posted by Part-time
I was just thinking about that old cottage again.... and that RPBG in the circuit that the washing machine was on, but almost right next to it was the dryer on a properly wired 240v circuit. If those two machines had ever touched and rubbed paint it could have led to a fire
You are correct. And look what happens when you have a sound system connected between two power outlets, one properly wired and the other with an RPBG.



As you can see from the diagram above, a microphone cable connected between the mixing board and the powered speaker will create a direct short-circuit between the two outlets. The cable will support the fault current, turning red hot and melting right before your eyes. Of course, this is very bad for the electronics and often does thousands of dollars in damage. Also, as I describe in this video below, you can't detect an RPBG outlet with a standard 3-light tester, metering between H-N, H-G, and N-G, or even with a $300 Ground Loop Impedance Tester.



RPBG outlets are not only dangerous to human life due to them creating a hot-skin condition, but will also damage and destroy electronics. As crazy as it seems, a single device plugged into an RPBG will appear to operate normally, but its chassis/skin will be electrified to a full 120 volts with 20 or 30 amps or fault current capability. Also, while RPBG outlets are difficult to create in new wiring, they're really easy to accidentally make when upgrading old outlets to include a "ground". And while any sort of bootleg ground (either reverse or correct polarity) is a violation of code, there has to be thousands or even millions of them around since it was a very quick and cheap way to upgraded outlets to be "grounded" back in the 60's and 70's.

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Old 07-04-2013, 12:52 AM   #37
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

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Originally Posted by jmsokol
. . .And finally, how many of you have felt any kind of tingle or shock from their "skoolie" or other RV?
Not a vehicle that I can remember, but our college radio station . . . .

40 years ago we first went on the air in the walk-out back basement of an old 1890s dorm. The used 10-watt Gates Radio (Harris) transmitter had a 20-foot ground lead connected through the window frame to a ground rod outside. The transmitter sat on a back countertop, and next to it was a small rack with the new modulation monitor and audio compressor/modulation limiter unit. They were both plugged into the same duplex receptacle box. I was the student Tech director, which meant I got the squawks from the air staff, fixed what I could, and called the First Class engineer on contract when needed.

One day, I had the transmitter unplugged, and put one hand on each cabinet. The unplugged transmitter bit me. I measured about 50 volts with an old-style analog meter between the outlet U-ground and the wire going out to the ground rod. When the transmitter was plugged in, the third prong and outside rod "sank" it all to zero. I don't believe it was a RPBG, I figured at the time it must have been an inductive or capacitive charge building up on the safety ground, as the bond was probably in the steam plant 4 buildings away, at the end of about 1/4 mile of wire. The live wires and floating ground were parallel all that distance. (In retrospect, the used tube-type EBS receiver in the audio rack may have had EMI capacitors on both the hot and the neutral to ground leaking the voltage, but I may have unplugged the rack during my tests.)

They were building a new student union/campus center at the time, and the radio station was moved in the next year or two after I left. The old dorm was torn down, and has been nothing but a lawn and memories for years. But that old wiring was an education not in the curriculum.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:15 AM   #38
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

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Originally Posted by Redbear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmsokol
. . .And finally, how many of you have felt any kind of tingle or shock from their "skoolie" or other RV?
Not a vehicle that I can remember, but our college radio station . . . .
Just a few days ago four young men were severely shocked In Lancaster, NY when the football goal post they were moving contacted overhead high-voltage lines. See http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/local/repo ... ted-school

One of the them had stopped breathing and was in cardiac arrest, but a quick thinking police officer called to the scene had a AED (Automated External Defibrillator) in his cruiser and was able to get his heart started. From what I've read it appears that everyone will recover (hopefully) but the oldest (2 was still listed in serious condition. This brings out two major points.

1) ALWAYS be aware of any overhead power lines when you're moving a ladder, goal post, vehicle or whatever. Most people are terrible at judging relative heights from the ground, so don't even get halfway close to any power lines. I think the rule is a 3-ft distance at the minimum from mid-voltage feeder lines, but even that's too close for me. I've had the fun of looking at autopsy photos of high voltage electrocutions back in my OSHA training days, so I stay WAY FAR away from any overhead lines. And be especially aware of any overhead lines if you're climbing on top of your "bus" for any reason. Power lines droop in the middle and it's surprising how close to the ground they can get. According to safety literature, you're supposed to maintain a 14-foot distance from high-tension power lines. Those are the big boys that can have up to 250,000 or even 500,000 volts and be at least 28 feet above the ground. So standing on top of a 13-foot tall RV can easily put you in the danger zone if you're parked right under high-tension lines.

2) Locate all AED devices in your church, campground, shopping mall, or place of business and commit them to memory. Every second is critical during an electrocution or heart attack. Most fire departments or EMS units will be glad to come by your place of business and do a short class on how they work as well as a demonstration of compression-only CPR. All modern AED's are quite smart and won't allow you to shock a healthy beating heart, so never hesitate to use one if you find someone unresponsive and you can't find a pulse. Just remember to call 911 first and get the EMS on the way.

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Old 07-04-2013, 06:34 AM   #39
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

Mike thankyou for the updates
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:56 AM   #40
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Re: RV Electrical Safety

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Originally Posted by bansil
Mike thankyou for the updates
You're most welcome.
Here's a recent article I wrote about watching out for "electricians" who mis-wire a TT-30 outlet with 240-volts instead of 120-volts http://www.noshockzone.org/accidentally ... lt-outlet/ and here's an article on how to make a special "kludge plug" that will bond the Neutral to the Ground bus in portable generators. http://www.noshockzone.org/generator-gr ... l-bonding/ A floating neutral in a portable generator will often cause RV voltage/surge protectors to improperly shut down when running from an external generator because it thinks you have an open ground. Please post these links to the top "sticky" post for everyone to read.

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