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Old 01-05-2012, 11:41 PM   #11
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Re: 12 volt

Well, I DO know who Fred is. I WILL use our extension cords. Fred was kind enough to answer many of my stupid questions I posted years ago on the Coach forums. He has converted many coaches over the years and gives seminars.


Could you please tell me the difference between the 12 gauge stranded copper wire in an extension cord and the 12 gauge stranded copper in a spool of wire?

David said to tell you that we certainly will not be pulling any more power thru the wiring than we already have using 12/3 extension cords on construction sites. sometimes running 200 to 300 ft from a power pole (we used to run air compressors, table saws, routers, circular saws & drills. many at the same time. add a Ready heater or two into that in the winter). Did I mention we are currently running an electric heater on a 25 ft 12/3 extension cord? It's not even warm... the cord, the heater is warm!
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:30 AM   #12
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Re: 12 volt

Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske
Could you please tell me the difference between the 12 gauge stranded copper wire in an extension cord and the 12 gauge stranded copper in a spool of wire?
The two most important would be the rating of the insulation, and the number of strands per AWG.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:33 AM   #13
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Re: 12 volt

Since I have lived the the "wire wars" here's a blast from the past... http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/2949.html Nothing was really resolved but you can stop directing it at me.There is nothing you can say that I have not already heard and considered. Like I said, I will use the wire we have. I will sit down, strip it out of the sheathing and wire it from the panel box breakers to what ever it's powering. It's not like any of our cords are "cheap". We may have used contractor cords but they were the best we could buy. So just put my wiring in the same category as my GFI breaker (you know, the one that can't possibly work because the power pole has a GFI breaker in it). This is far from the first time we have wired using a heavy duty contractor cord. They never got hot. Unlike the original wiring.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:36 AM   #14
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Re: 12 volt

Quote:
Originally Posted by bus-bro
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske
Could you please tell me the difference between the 12 gauge stranded copper wire in an extension cord and the 12 gauge stranded copper in a spool of wire?
The two most important would be the rating of the insulation, and the number of strands per AWG.
Our extension cords are heavier and have more stands then the spools of wire the are available from Lowes/HomeDepot. I have never seen anywhere any indication of what the insulation is made of.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:31 AM   #15
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Re: 12 volt

IMHO, insulation is EVERYTHING, along with heat, mechanical protection and load that MAY EVER at one time be on the ckt. Copper is expensive, but I have been on service calls more than once, when the cause of HEAT, not always a fire yet, were from improper use of wire (type of insulation, i.e. zip cord, extension cord, lamp cord, SO cord, etc.)
Places like wiring, I will try to install the SAFEST system I can for the money... I know little of buses and auto wiring, most I have learned in the past 8 months just reading here, but electrical systems will find a weak spot on there own, if one is available. Hell, a homeowner once used lamp cord for ten years inside a wall to a clothes washer, till the insulation finally gave up... they did live thru the fire. Just sayin, lots of stuff will work, but USE SAFE installs wherever you can.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:28 AM   #16
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Re: 12 volt

estension cords are fine with me. its not a question of the cord, its how much load you place on it... either 110 or 12v... hence proper number of circuits. and as far as earlier post mentioned using them for 100 feet or more on construction sites... i used a 100' 10ga one to run a double wide mobile while i was putting in the electric, well and sewer, and it worked fine..just didnt start the electric furnace. My bus has extension cords for the 12v and solid wiring for the 110v, except for a few ends.. like to the frig.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #17
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Re: 12 volt

As mentioned, it's all in how you use it -

It's this kinda mess that's scary.
I'm sure this installation is impressive in it's 'neatness', but that's it's biggest problem -


Let's try to put a breaker on one of those circuits
We'll assume they're 12 ga. and since we have no idea what type of insulation is on these cables (is it really 'SO' or what?) we'll calc a breaker using plain old THHN (90C/194F) -

12 gauge ampacity @ 30C = 27 amps. NEC Table B.310.1

This installation is right up against the metal skin of the bus (or nearly so) and will probably be filled with insulation and covered with a ceiling. Think it'll get hot in there? You betcha - think it'll get to 140F - wouldn't doubt it a bit. Next to a piece of heated metal and insulation to stop all air flow. HOT!

So let's derate our 12ga. wire again per NEC B.310.1 for the higher ambient temperature (140F/60C)-
27 amps x .71 = 19.6 amps

Now, I can identify at least 9 cables in this photo, there could be more - so 18 current carrying conductors -
So let's again derate once again, this time per NEC B.31..15(B)(2)(a) for multiple conductors in a race.
19.6 amp x 0.5 = 9.6 amps.

Where do you get a breaker for that?
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:49 PM   #18
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Re: 12 volt

Since we have no DC on the house side (except the water pump and the 12vDC stuff for the hydronic system) we will be using the extension cords. For the 12vDC stuff I will use the unmarked wiring out of the Eagle (from Belgium). My opinion of the use of romex... let's just say, I'm not terribly comfortable with it.

But here is what I have come up with after cruising thru the internet. ..

Quote:
Ancor/Marinco/Nicro
ANCOR's proprietary premium vinyl insulation stays flexible even in extreme cold and resists salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline and ultra-violet radiation. Exclusive insulation is rated at 600 volts, 105° C dry and 75° C wet,

“Can I use ‘regular wire’ for my boat?” The answer to this common question is a qualified “yes,” if the wire is SAE (Society of Automotive Engineering) J378, J1127 or J1128. These wires are designed for “surface vehicles,” not for the special requirements of the marine industry, but meet the minimum standards for boats in limited circumstances.

SAE (Society of Automotive Engineering) wire is up to 12% smaller than AWG (American Wire Gauge) Boat Cable
Note: Ancor does not recommend SAE automotive wire to run 110vAC current. I'm running 110vAC current.



MY Contractor cables (interior wiring seems to have no markings on them.
E64047/16-3 SJ1W FT-2 (UL)(75C)C(UL)(60C)
25 strands

E64047/16-3 SJTW FT-2 (UL)(75C)C(UL)(60C)
25 strands
Note: The #16 gauge wire is rated to carry 13 amperes (up to 1560 watts for runs under 50 ft.If the cable length exceeds 50 feet, it will only have 1250 watts of available power. David & I tend to use these to replace the always too short cords on power tools after they break off. I have an electric staple gun with a cord that is all of 4" long. What are these people thinking.

#12 Style SJT 3-CONDUCTOR 100% COPPER
25 strands

Eagle Bus wire... I have been told buy other Eagle owners that this is identical to Ancor wire.
No markings
12 ga @ 35 strands


Quote:
http://www.buyextensioncord.com/exte...ds_codes.shtml
The Jackets of extension cords are covered with imprints or embossing indicating how and where they can appropriately be used.It is essential to choose the correct cable jacket if you plan to use the extension cord in a demanding environment.

Here's the key to some of that code as outlined in the National Electrical Code.
S Hard Service Flexible Cord
SJ Junior Hard Service Flexible Cord
E Thermoplastic Elastomer Insulation
T Thermoplastic Insulation
O Jacket is Oil Resistant
OO Jacket & Conductors are Oil Resistant
R Thermoplastic Rubber Insulation
X Cross-linked Synthetic Polymer Insulation
HH High Temperature
W Moisture Resistant
N Nylon Jacket


Quote:
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/o...tsafety/cords/
Extension cords are labeled with valuable information as to the use, size and wattage rating of the cord. Cords are offered in many lengths and are marked with a size or "gauge." The gauge is based on the American Wire Gauge (AWG) System, in which the larger the wire, the smaller the AWG number. For example, a 12 gauge wire would be larger and can power larger wattage appliances than a 14 gauge wire.
Voltage x Amps = Watts or every 600 watts equals 5 amps (120 x 5 = 600) motors that need a surge (like refrigerator compressors) need a starting surge of up to 3X their running power. This is a general rule not a hard and fast fact. Some appliances require more, others less.

Any 16 gauge cord between 0 and 100 feet long will adequately handle loads up to 10 amps.
Any 14 gauge cord between 0 and 50 feet long will adequately handle loads between 10 and 15 amps.
Any 12 gauge cords between 50 to 100 feet long will adequately handle loads between 10 and 15 amps.

Our bus is 40 ft. The AC/DC panel box is roughly 10 ft from the front of the bus. Allowing for the ups/downs/overs I'm looking at a max run of under 50 ft (for my computer) on AC power. I have learned (in years past) that using SAE automotive wire is not all that great for AC current. That is why we are using the Eagles 12vDC systems wire on all our DC stuff. We won't be using a single breaker, we will be using up to 7. But it's our "house" and we WILL build to the standards we feel apply. After all it's not our first. And please, NO ONE DO WHAT WE ARE DOING. Happy everyone?

If anyone has the ANCOR wire, could you please strip the insulation back and count the wires and post it along with the guage here. I could not find that info anywhere.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:01 PM   #19
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Re: 12 volt

The most important aspect of wiring design is the environment of the installation - that's what just about everything is based on (see my previous post).
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske
Any 16 gauge cord between 0 and 100 feet long will adequately handle loads up to 10 amps.
Any 14 gauge cord between 0 and 50 feet long will adequately handle loads between 10 and 15 amps.
Any 12 gauge cords between 50 to 100 feet long will adequately handle loads between 10 and 15 amps.
While this may a good rule of thumb when using an extension cord as an extension cord, supplying a circular saw in the garage or a weed trimmer in the yard, once you put that cable in a 2" high solar heated metal channel it's a whole different story, as the simple calculations above show. It's no longer an extension cord - it's interior wiring - and all the extension cord specs and references are irrelevant.

All that stuff from a website that sells extension cords is probably accurate as far as the website is concerned because they're selling extension cords.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske
We won't be using a single breaker, we will be using up to 7.
If you run the cables as shown in the Fred Hobie photo, 7 is worse than one. You'll have 7 circuits, each with a conductor amapcity of less than 10 amps, each breaker'ed for 15 amps - the conductors can fail well before the breaker trips, assuming 15 amp breakers are used, of course.

One piece of good advice -
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske
And please, NO ONE DO WHAT WE ARE DOING.
Tom
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:01 PM   #20
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Re: 12 volt

I'll tell you what. I won't give any more advice on electrical. How's than. Nor anything else.
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