1982 Thomas Safe-T-Liner "Illusion"

[Les Lampman]

Now that the seats are out it's time to continue the "gutting" process. On the agenda for today was the ceiling. First I removed the raceways (or conduits) for the wiring, they run above the windows on both sides of the bus and you can see them in this photo (with the black row numbers on them):



Next I removed the Torx head screws that hold each panel to a bus frame. There are 15 rows of screws with 63 screws per row for a total of 945 screws that hold the ceiling up...I think even for a school bus this might have been overkill!



Then the panels started coming down...



The factory fiberglass is still up on the left side. It's in fantastic condition but I'll replace it with something a lot more efficient. The metal ceiling panels will not be re-installed; they be replaced by (probably) 1/8" luan for a thermal break. We'll apply the ceiling finish (Ozite, vinyl, cork, whatever) to that.

I only got about half the panels down, I broke my Torx bit and there's no place to go buy one today.

[Elliot Naess]

I'm gon'na jump in here and pick on youse guys. For the benefit of many other
would-be bus converters, you understand.

I had no trouble removing the seats in my bus(es). I was underneath with goggles
on (have since bought a face shield), and I held a deep socket on a 30" extension.
My partner-in-crime was inside with an air wrench. We started by agreeing
on a pattern of bolts down the aisle.

"Ready"
"WOOOOOOOOOP!"
"Got it."

"Ready."
"WHOOOOOOOOP!"
"Got it."

"Ready."
"WHOOOOOOOOP!"
"Again."
"WHOOP!"
"Got it."

"Ready"...

It went so fast we had to wait for the compressor to catch up. Two or three bolts
snapped off, the rest just unscrewed. Similar method for the inside bolts -- I held
with a wrench, and Peter whoooooooop'd with the long extension. Then we held a
seat-hurling contest. Gotta build a trebuchet!

[the_experience03]

Sometimes I'm glad that Wayne saw it fit to use #3 Phillips bits for everything. Even the local gas station has those!

How are you planning on flexing the luan? Are you just going to push it into place or do you have a steam vox or something? How are you attaching it to the ceiling?

MY seatbolts weren't going anywhere with a wrench. In fact, many along the seat rail on the outside edge even had to be ground. What's worse is that they were all grade 8 bolts. It didn't take long for me to figure out why Wayne went bankrupt. With so much competition, it seems that many of their techniques would just put them above the price point people were willing to pay. Stuff like the continuous panels on the roof and sides couldn't have been cheap.

Did someone say trebuchet? For my freshman year College Physics class, a buddy and I built a mean treb. It used four 235-75R15 tires mounted on rims for the counterweight to send a softball sailing. It threw that ball 90 yards at 90 mph at a height of 45 feet in the air. Yep, that's parabolic flight, just like it's supposed to be. Unfortunately it self destructed in a test fire just prior to demonstration. I seem to recall shards of hot steel coming flying off the axle and into the crowd.....My recommendation is to use steel in building yours. The Home Depot wood the school's purchase order paid for just didn't cut it.

[paul iossi]

looks like a mobile bowling alley, which end gets the pin setting machine?

[GoneCamping]

I'm glad you've been able to remove the screws in the ceiling panels. Mine are held in with #3 Phillips...and I can't get but one or two out before breaking the bit. At 950 or screws, that means I'd have to buy 475 bits to get the job done. I pretty much forced to leave the ceiling panels in place... Will have to just work with it that way. The insulation up there is thicker than I thought, found that out when I drilled through for the waste tank vent stacks...

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

I'm gon'na jump in here and pick on youse guys. For the benefit of many other
would-be bus converters, you understand.

I had no trouble removing the seats in my bus(es). I was underneath with goggles
on (have since bought a face shield), and I held a deep socket on a 30" extension.
My partner-in-crime was inside with an air wrench. We started by agreeing
on a pattern of bolts down the aisle.

I was able to do this on my first bus...the Blue Bird.

The ironic part on the Thomas is that all the hardware that holds the seats is stainless steel. Every bolt in the seat rails unbolted with ease. Those few in the floor where I could get to the outside bolts also came apart with ease. So, if I could have held the nuts underneath it would have been an easy disassembly.

The problem is that the bolts that hold the seat legs to the floor are inside the frame rails and Thomas installed four air tanks (two just aft of the front whees and two just behind those) between the frame rails just ahead of the storage compartment that takes up half the length of the space between the rear wheels and the front wheels. I tried every tool I have including weird combinations of extentions and swivels but I just couldn't get to most of the nuts under the bus (and none above the storage compartment). Thus my introduction to the world of cut-off wheels!

You would think on a rear engine bus with no driveshaft in the way that getting to the floor down the center line would be a piece of cake. Ha! As soon as they got the driveshaft behind the rear axle and opened up all that lovely space the designers thought of all the stuff they could run right down the center of the bus...and that takes up way more room than any driveshaft! Geez...who'd a thunk it?

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by the_experience03

How are you planning on flexing the luan? Are you just going to push it into place or do you have a steam vox or something? How are you attaching it to the ceiling?

My belief is that 1/8" doorskin material will flex to fit the curve. If not I'll have to re-invent when I get there. It'll get attached with Sikaflex or 3M 5200 (or other high-tech adhesive if I discover a better one) and screws; once the adhesive sets I'll remove the screws. The luan will then be covered with Ozite, fabric, or vinyl with or without a thin foam backing as necessary. At the moment I'm leaning toward an off-white marine Naugahyde for light reflection and ease of cleaning; it will get glued (using a 3M spray adhesive) to the luan.

I have a lot more research to do on the best choice of insulation material.

[Elliot Naess]

Skipping over here from the Millicent thread...

If I do go for the lift one challenge that I have is that my window posts
(bus frames) are not vertical. Starting at the top of the side wall (bottom of the
window) they lean toward the inside of the bus by an inch at the top over the 22.5"
height of the windows. If I raise the roof 12" (that would be the plan) I don't know
how to add-in the new extension pieces and marry up the angles of the remaining
top and bottom sections of the original post. I may have to do some very careful
measuring and a CAD drawing to see what the issues really are.

On angled window pillars, we would mount the lifting apparatus vertically by shimming.
After Lift Off, we would cut the pillars half way thru and bend them enough to get both
ends of the inserts started.
A little oil on the inserts will make them slide in MUCH easier and will let the pillars find
their own angles as the roof comes down into final position.
Measure for squareness and weld.
Drink a beverage of your choice.

[Les Lampman]

Well darn...I wrote this over on your thread...so I brought it back over here!

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

Les:
I did not test the flexibility of my window pillars, but if they won’t bend easily,
you would just make partial cuts until they will bend, and weld them up afterwards.
That’s how the custom car builders lower their roofs. I’ve never looked at a Thomas,
but it sounds perfectly doable. I’ll take a fresh look at the Illusion thread and we’ll
make further plans there.

I do wish I had taken metal shop in high school rather than wood shop, that I had been a machinist's mate in the Navy rather than an electrician and that I had fallen in love with messing around with cars rather than boats...and least as far as this bus project goes. Once I get to the interior and can wire, plumb and build cabinets I'm good to go...it's getting there that offers the challenge!

That's a great idea Elliot and reminds me now that you mention it of the way I've read about several of the big bus folks making their new curved frames under the caps; I've even seen a few photos of it. Doesn't seem too difficult.

I'll get some photos tomorrow of the window pillars and their dimensions. This is starting to sound doable again (thanks so much for the encouragement and technical expertise); my wife Shelley will be happy that I'm not cruising the bus sale sites and eBay looking for buses with taller tops!

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

Skipping over here from the Millicent thread...

On angled window pillars, we would mount the lifting apparatus vertically by shimming.
After Lift Off, we would cut the pillars half way thru and bend them enough to get both
ends of the inserts started.
A little oil on the inserts will make them slide in MUCH easier and will let the pillars find
their own angles as the roof comes down into final position.
Measure for squareness and weld.
Drink a beverage of your choice.

Got it! I'll take a good look tomorrow and see how things look when i get just a bit more material out of the way. The windows are held in with Phillips screws that strip out in a blink . I bought some fancy screw extractor thingies (tech term) that I hope will help. If not I'll drill the heads off of the one's that fight back. I'll also take some careful measurement on the bus to see just how far I really have to tweak things.

The more I've thought about it, the more I've realized I really need (and want) more headroom in the bus. For more floor insulation, for looks outside, for a more open feeling inside (I can use larger windows), for a wider (er...taller audience) if I ever sell the thing, and so that my sisters' husbands (both of whom I like a lot) don't have to scrunch down when they're in the bus as they do now.

As a bonus I can use the typical rooftop A/C units; I'm not crazy about the way they look but that will keep me from using more space from my storage compartments for "basement" A/C.

Houston...I think we have another mission!

[Les Lampman]

Today I removed a couple of windows, the lower sill, the inside panel and the outside cover plates.

Here's what I found:



Above everything is taken apart...the inner panel has been removed from under the two removed windows (only the fiberglass insualtion remains).

Below is a closer view of a pillar.



And below is what the pillar looks like from the outside. The "channel" of the pillar 1 3/16" wide and 1 3/4" deep.



The following photo gives a bit better overview of what the outside looks like.



Here's what the pillar looks like at the top when it meets the roof.



And at the bottom.



Oh yeah...I also took down a few more roof panels (but forgot to take photos); I should finish those tomorrow.

Full-size (big) photos are in the Gallery.

[Les Lampman]

And for those that are interested in floorplans and such; I think we finally came up with a winner for both the boss and me.



A much larger image is in the Gallery.

[Elliot Naess]

Clearly, Mr. Thomas and Mr. Blue Bird both went to the same Academy Of School Bus Design.
Practically identical structures.

As for your floor plan, I am not able to read all the identifications. I tried enlarging
the one in the Gallery, but there is not enough detail. Is that a piano? I'm looking for
seats for several people, and I have trouble finding them. Of course, if you're happy
with it, I'm happy with it.

See you next year!

[the_experience03]

Darn scroll-proofed pictures

[Les Lampman]

Hmmm...I wonder if the floorplan drawing is opening correctly? There should be a fair amount of detail there though the one I posted here is pretty small (scroll-proofed!).

That is a piano. It's a Roland digital. It sits in front of the couch secured to a base that's on top of a couple of the removable table legs that all RV's seem to use. There's a table top that covers the piano when not in use. The piano (and the table top that covers it) can be removed in order to pull the couch out into a double bed.

There aren't a lot of seats. There is room for five folks; the driver, three on the couch, and one in the swivel seat on the port side. Our normal compliment is two; the couch for my wife and the easy chair for me. The most I've ever had on the Blue Bird is four. I guess if I have more than five aboard some will have to pile in the bed. The main criteria for the bus layout was comfortable living for two adults.

There's a wall just behind the driver and the thing with the sqaures on it is a raised hearth sort of deal; it's 9" tall to cover the wheel well. Just behind the driver is the flat screen TV (says 32" on my drawing but I don't know if I'd really go that big) and entertainment stuff. There will be some form a cabinet there but I haven't drawn it yet. Just aft of that is a Dickinson Marine stainless propane fireplace/heater. Aft of that is my easy chair. On the starboard side is the 84" long couch and aft of that an end table.

To port then is the "U" shaped kitchen with the sink and the range; the refrigerator and another work counter are across from it on the starboard side (I have to have room for the espresso machine and grinder!).

Aft of the kitchen on the port side is the tub/shower and toilet. The toilet sits in front of the emergency exit door which will remain functional. Across from the bath area is a long dresser and storage unit which is a floor-to-ceiling arrangement incorporating a linen closet and dresser drawers.

Aft of the dresser/storage unit on the starboard side is a 30" x 60" work table for my wife (she's a painter).

Aft of the bath on the port side is a vanity/sink unit and aft of that a hanging closet with drawers below.

All the way aft is the king-sized bed. The fresh water tank (98-gallons at the moment) is under the bed along with a Webasto water-to-water heat exchanger, fresh water pump and so forth.

Primary heat in the bus will be hot water heat with heating units in the living room, kitchen, and bedroom. The hot water comes from the engine when underway (via the water-to-water heat exchanger) and from a Webasto furnace/boiler when stationary. The Dickinson Marine stainless propane heater is ambiance and back-up heat (and near my chair since I'm always cold (and my wife isn't)). The bus' original heating system will still be used to heat the driver's area and for windshield defrost; the two rear heaters (one mid bus the other at the rear) will be removed.

Other than a bazillion details for wiring, plumbing, tanks, and all the other stuff under and in the bus that's about it.

[Elliot Naess]

"Darn scroll-proofed pictures!""


Touché!

Happy New Laughs everybody![/quote]

[Elliot Naess]

Ah, I went back and figured out how to open the drawing in 1663 x 338 pixels
-- the little Size menu. Very good. Found the couch.

Your wife paints, eh.... Trade a roof lift on Illusion for a mural on Millicent?

[the_experience03]

Where's the B3 (or better yet, C3) with the twin Leslies on the roof?

Do you have the Webasto already? It's too bad I already dumped mine off for scrap (lots of copper between the motor and plumbing) or else I could have sent it so you could have had parts at the very least if you already have one.

I'm very impressed with how well you laid it out for everyone to sleep. It's very stick 'n staple of you. Mine very comfortably sleeps 6 (12 if they like each other a lot), but 2/3 of the length of the bus is my bedroom and the bunkroom! I'm thinking of building a box sort of thing over my WVO tank that will serve as another couch/sleep thingie. The problem is that I've run out of storage space. Anyone have a line on a good place to get some old school lockers?

Are you just going to use hydronic baseboard radiators for the heat? I'm interested in that that seems like the easiest plan for me. What kind of lines does a person run for that? My cpvc water lines seem to do just fine, but they have some give to them. I would think that hard soldered copper might be asking for trouble. Also, where are you locating the expansion tank, pump, and air scoop? The air scoop really should be the high point on the system which is why I ask though I did plenty of boiler installations in the basement of 3 story houses. Two air scoops and a lot of time bleeding seems to work ok for that purpose. Also, what are you going to pump the water with when the webasto isn't running? Does your webasto have a pump only option? Most modern boilers will run a heat cycle, start pumping once it gets up to temp, and continue to pump after the heater is off, but I really have no idea how the newer webastos work.

Well thought out floorplan! Your experience both with the previous bus and the boats shows.

[paul iossi]

Check out PEX tubing, cross linked poly, it's the latest in brick and mortar construction in the states and has been used in europe for 20/30 years, it uses a tool to expand the tubing and a sleeve for installation on a fitting and then memory makes the connection leakproof. Another option would hydraulic hose along the same line, in the mid 80's someone (parker hannafin?) had a synthetic hyd. hose that you could cut to length with a razor, crimp on the fitting, install, good upto 3000psi. The drawbacks were abrasion and kinking, but it was really easy to work with and durable when properly installed and protected. It was available as single and siamese line (great for out and back installations), working temps from below freezing to + 400F.

[Les Lampman]

I don't already have the Webasto, it's an expensive item and won't be needed for awhile so I'll wait to purchase it until later but I will install the rest of the system in its entirety...blowers, hose, WTW (water-to-water) heat exchanger, expansion tank, etc.

The blowers are pretty much a copy of a typical car-type unit; a bunch of tubes with fins with low draw fans blowing across them. There are a few manufacturers but so far I'm leaning toward the Heatercraft units. I'll likely use the toekick model (9H); it's rated at 8087 BTU and draws .36 amps. Heat-wise this unit puts out just a bit more than a 1500-watt electric space heater and has a 3-speed fan. Street price should be around $175.



The distribution lines are 3/4" industrial heater hose. The fittings for copper tubing are too restictive for a low-flow system like the Webasto although one can use some short sections of copper tube where you want to radiate a little heat...like in a closet (especially on a boat with its "wet" locker for foul weather gear); I'll use all heater hose.

The buses heater hoses (supply and return) run up the driver's side of the bus from the rear engine comparment to the dash area. In the rear port corner of the bus I'll install the water-to-water heat exchanger in the supply line coming from the engine. This keeps the engine's coolant system (and the heat to the driver's area) separate from the Webasto system so a failure in one doesn't affect the other.



The Webasto system is just a simple loop; starting with the water-to-water heat exchanger the next item is the expansion tank (under the rear bed above the heat exchanger), then the Webasto DBW2010, then each of the three (planned) Heatercraft 9H blower units, then back to the heat exchange for another lap. Total temperature drop for the loop is about 7 to 10 degrees (F) so all the heater blowers work about the same.

Here's the Webasto:



There are a couple of other considerations. Right now I have a 3-way water heater...AC power, propane, and an engine heat coil. If I use this unit the Webasto loop will go through it. I may bite the bullet and get the RV500 propane-fired demand water heater; 6-gallons of hot water is not enough for the tub. The tub is a total luxury and will most often be used as a shower but on those "special" occassions where water is plentiful it would be nice to have enough hot water for the tub. Also the RV500 takes up less space inside the bus but it's expensive and you're beholden to the one and only company that makes it for support and parts.

Another consideration is the coolant pump. When the engine is supplying hot water the Webasto's coolant pump keeps the Webasto loop running (the coolant pump can run independently of the boiler), but if I don't install the Webasto right away I'll need to install a coolant pump to circulate water through the heater blowers.

Like this guy:



Most likely I'd leave it in parallel with the Webasto once it is installed as a backup pump.

What I don't like about the Webasto system (other than cost!) is that it can be finicky. It is diesel-fired and problems with fuel, high altitude, or the fuel nozzle getting crudded up can shut the system down. I don't want to be wholly dependent on one fuel source (if I have a major fuel problem, like fuel gelling) I may not have the engine or the Webasto for heat so I'm also installing the Dickinson Marine propane heater.



This unit is rated to heat a 36' boat so will provide enough heat to keep the temps in the habitable range in an emergency. It will mostly be used for ambiance and to provide a bit of extra heat up forward (where most of the windows are). It's a direct vent unit so it doesn't consume oxygen from the interior. Because of it's vent configuration it will not be used underway and isn't needed; the bus' heat system will provide more than enough between the Webasto loop and the original front heater/defroster.

That's it for the heat systems.