1982 Thomas Safe-T-Liner "Illusion"

[paul iossi]

Can the RV500 be set up to recirculate and be used to supply hot water heat? I know its LP fired instead of oil like the Webasto, just a suggestion to multitask the mechanical systems.

The design reflects a lot of thought and planing with your specific needs and desires making the decisions, good job, very impressive.

This site continually sends the message that these projects are and should about what's right for the builder/owner and personal needs are most important.

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by the_experience03

Where's the B3 (or better yet, C3) with the twin Leslies on the roof?

My wife is strictly a "piano girl", although when she's played on my sister's Yamaha Clavinova she's tried layering strings and thought that was fun. Right now we have an acoustic upright piano, obviously that won't work in the bus so we'll get the Roland digital. I grew up with an organ in the house (a Baldwin theatre-style) so the digital is fun for me with it's rhythm section and other voices. [The piano is primarily for my wife...she really plays, I just play around; I have my guitar and banjo.]

I'm very impressed with how well you laid it out for everyone to sleep. It's very stick 'n staple of you. Mine very comfortably sleeps 6 (12 if they like each other a lot), but 2/3 of the length of the bus is my bedroom and the bunkroom!

I didn't quite get to the...entertains 6, seats 4 for dinner, and sleeps 2 but I was sure heading that way! The couch pulling out into a double was a concession to "what if" and because it's so easy to do. It may, in fact, never get used. The biggie was the king bed in our bedroom as our two Australian Cattle Dogs (Blue Heelers) sleep with us, so we end up with the equivalent of a queen bed on good nights and a doube bed others.

Well thought out floorplan! Your experience both with the previous bus and the boats shows.

Thanks!

For general consumption:

One of the primary reasons I wanted to convert a bus (other than I'm nuts) is so that, like most folks I suspect, I could do the interior the way I wanted it. I think this is an important part of the conversion process and is really what makes the bus "ours" when we are done. Since everyone has different needs and visions of what the bus will be for them there really is no right or wrong. A family of 4 or 5 would probably not like my interior and I don't have a clue what I'd do with a couple of bunks in the hallway (other than as a repository for "stuff"). I show my floorplans not as expample of what is "right" but rather as food for thought and a collection of ideas. I know I've gotten a ton of ideas from owning a few RVs, looking at other folks buses, and of course more boats than I care to remember.

The funny part is the very first layout I did for the Thomas would have worked fine, then I spent dozens of hours changing it. The problem was, it was boring. It looked like a long tunnel (or office corridor) with "things" on either side all the way to the back of the bus. So in addition to finding a home for all the necessary components I also wanted something that was very comfortable, user-friendly and aesthetically pleasing.

First I defined the "mission"; in our case it's a long-term liveaboard for two adults with no need to accommodate children or grandkids. We also didn't have to provide much for overnight guests since it's not likely to happen.

Since our bus is to be a rolling home it became important that each area be comfortable and fully functional for extended use. For example, an itty-bitty kitchen with a couple of square feet of counter will work for a weekend or a couple of weeks of vacation but not for a couple of folks cooking everyday for, perhaps, years.

Then I listed the "must haves" like the king bed, the piano, the tub (this would have been the thing that was dropped though if I couldn't make it work), my wife's work space, my comfortable chair, and so forth.

I've seen folks grouse about how "all" buses are set up the same and why doesn't someone come up with new ideas and layouts. Well, the reality is we're mostly all conditioned to feel comfortable with the concept that spaces (in business buildings, in homes, in RVs, in boats, really everywhere) tend to offer public space first then more and more private spaces the "deeper" one travels into the interior. So just as in a house the typical presentation is living room, kitchen, bathrooms, then bedrooms; I think most folks would be a bit uncomfortable if the first space you walked into in a house was someone's bedroom (though that might be fun ). From the boat biz I know "innovation shows but traditional goes"; that means folks love to look at innovative layouts and such but when it comes time to pull out the wallet they almost always go with what they're most comfortable with. So I knew from the start of my desgin process that I'd have the living room forward, the kitchen area next, then the bath area, and finally our bedroom at the rear.

I knew the piano had to go up front, it didn't make sense to have my wife playing all by herself in the back of the bus, I like to listen to her play as much as she enjoys playing. The art table was the biggest hassle, 30" x 60" in a bus is a fair amount of space. I wanted it up front so that when I was reading or working on the computer we were not too far apart but I just couldn't get it to work out well and she needs room around the work table to move so it ended up in the back where she can take over the whole space when working. Even the bed then becomes a useful place to set things down.

The other issue in layouts is with regard to the mechanical requirements like the toilet needing to be over the waste tank (for the most part and there are ways around it), and (in our case) the need to keep the side emergency door functional, where batteries will live, where the water heater goes, ad infinitum. I also mixed in the fact that I didn't want long runs for the hot water lines so that dictated the need for the water heater to be realtively close to the shower, kitchen sink and lav. I also didn't want propane lines running every which way so the propane consumers (range, water heater and Dickinson heater) are near each other.

The other aspect of our "mission profile" is that we'd like to be as independent as possible; we're not much for hanging out in the typical RV park for any length of time so we need to be able to go almost indefinitely without the need for a shore power connection. We can't do away with the need to take on water and fuel, or empty the waste tanks, but otherwise we should be able to boondock quite well.

Since I have such an extensive background in the marine business and what I do a lot is design electrical systems for cruising boats this will help me set up the bus for extended time away from the grid quite well. Conservation is the key; every amp you don't use is one you don't have to supply. A high level of insulation, energy efficient lighting, low draw appliances and such are all important. I'll spend the money up front to get those components so I don't have to purchase even more expensive fuel to run a generator. My goal is for the bus to be totally electrically self-sustaining on solar power alone. I realize this is a goal and perhaps not doable in all circumstances but if I can achieve it for the most part we'll end up running a noisy, expensive generator very little.

OK...this is getting way too long, I really need to get my web site going.

[Elliot Naess]

Points well taken, Les. In contrast , Millicent is for several people to
spend a few days on a rough-and-tumble "expedition", so my interior
and amenities will be very different.

Organ, eh... If you ever come to Sacramento, stop by the Towe Auto Museum
and check out the full blown Wurlitzer theatre organ, which belongs to ATOS.

Designing boats, eh... Do you know Paul V. in Poulsbo?

(Ooops, we're drifting again.)

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by paul iossi

Can the RV500 be set up to recirculate and be used to supply hot water heat? I know its LP fired instead of oil like the Webasto, just a suggestion to multitask the mechanical systems.

The design reflects a lot of thought and planing with your specific needs and desires making the decisions, good job, very impressive.

This site continually sends the message that these projects are and should about what's right for the builder/owner and personal needs are most important.

Hi Paul,

Well...yes...and no. Physically it would work fine, with a pump in the sytem it could easily reheat the water circulating in the heating system but it's maximum temp is 135-dgrees (F) (as oppossed to the typical 180-degrees for the heating systems) and it would have to be dedicated to that as the liquid that circulates in the heating system is "coolant", a mix of water and antifreeze, just as in the engine system. It would take a water-to-water heat exchanger in order to provide heat for the domestic water.

In a lot of cases I like for things to do double-duty (or even triple) but with regard to "systems" I'm a lot more conservative and tend to like redundancy, at least when it doesn't add a lot of complexity and/or a lot more cost. Webasto actually has an add-on unit to the system that will do the instant hot water thing but it's as costly as adding the RV500 and it suffers from the fact that if you lose the Webasto system you also then lose hot water. I like the idea that for the same cost that I can have a unit that's independent and runs off a different fuel source.

I'm thinking about adding a marine water heater to the Webasto loop (they're under $200). The only difference between these and the RV water heaters are the marine units are stainless construction and they don't run on propane. If I went this way I'd have "free" hot water (6-gallons or 11-gallons depending on the space I'm willing to donate) when the Webasto or main engine is running (or for quite awhile after they have been running).

If the bus is plugged into shorepower the electric element in the marine water heater will provide the hot water. This would also be the case if we're low on propane, then the generator can run to provide electricity to the marine water heater.

When the Webasto and/or the main engine isn't running, and the bus isn't on shore power, the RV500 will provide the hot water (and of course the relatively large quantity of hot water for the bath tub).

Things in the Marine Water Heater/RV500 system would dovetail nicely as the marine water heater's outlet would feed the RV500; since it's a tankless unit the water just passes through. Even if the RV500 is "on" if the water entering the unit is above the RV500's setpoint (adjustable from 90 to 135 degrees (f)) it just doesn't fire.

From a user standpoint it's pretty simple:

* If the Webasto or main engine are running you've always got hot water from the marine unit (6 or 11 gallons).

* If the Webasto and main engine are shut down but you're plugged into shore power you have hot water from the marine unit (same 6 or 11 gallons).

* If the Webasto is running for heat and you're plugged into shore power both the electric element and the coolant loop are providing hot water from the marine unit.

* If the Webasto and engine are shut down and you're not on shore power the RV500 is providing instantaneous hot water from propane. Also, if you use all the hot water in the marine unit's tank the RV500 will come online once the water temp drops.

Thanks for making me sort all this out! It helped me a lot!

[paul iossi]

I should have more specific I was thinking use the RV500 to heat potable water and circulate thru a liquid/liquid exchanger for heat, but I like the built in redundency that your system has.
Thank nyou for keeping my thought processes on the ball also.

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by paul iossi

I should have more specific I was thinking use the RV500 to heat potable water and circulate thru a liquid/liquid exchanger for heat, but I like the built in redundency that your system has.
Thank nyou for keeping my thought processes on the ball also.

Ah ha! That would work I suppose. I know of some radiant floor heating water temps that drop as low as 90-degrees and the top of the range seems to be around 180-degrees (and everything in between). A couple of systems I've seen actually vary the water temp to control the temperature in the room as oppossed to just turning the system off and on. I think the possibilites are darn near endless!

I've been choosing the components I have because I'm familar with them and I feel if they survive in marine applications they ought to do alright in the bus. I know a lot of home hydronic systems use PEX tubing (which is what I'll use for my water system) but most companies that I know of that install the Webasto system in boats use the industrial grade heater hose; I suspect they feel the relatively thick wall of the heavy heater hose will put up with abrasion and rough treatment better. And these systems often use coolant that's heated by a main engine and at those temps I think the PEX is up near its limit.

Interestingly enough, the thing I'm a bit concerned about now is how to not get someone scalded by the hot water since it can easily reach 180-degrees. I hadn't really thought about it much before (instead just worrying about getting hot water in the first place) but when I really thought about what is heating the water (like engine coolant through the WTW heat exchanger) I realized it could be dangerously hot coming out of the faucet. I'll have to look into how to deal with that.

[Les Lampman]

Elliot's Blue Bird:



Man, that pillar is a dead ringer for those on my bus, wonder if they buy the material from the same place? The only difference I see is that the outside plates on my Thomas are held in place with screws rather than riveted and the lower screw on each side is longer and screws into the window frames.

I am so jealous of those aluminum panels! I thought I'd make a call to the only metal supplier I know of up here and see what sheets of 20-gauge steel will cost (that's the same thing TomCat used on his Thomas conversion). I figure if I have to buy the stuff the steel ought to be less than aluminum.

I have a friend that owned a shop that did a lot of fabrication and sheetmetal stuff and whatnot. That would have been the perfect place to get all my steel pieces from. Doggone guy went and retired and sold the place to his son and now spends most of his time in Hawaii!

The only other difference is that I can't use the rub rail to hide the edge. On the right hand window you can see the primered space above the rub rail where the sill (shown in place on the left hand window) was. With the outside plate and the sills removed I have a nice surface for the window skins to land on (but I've got to get them straight!).



I didn't get a photo of it but I can tell you there were never going to be any leaks inside the lower walls of this bus. The inner panel (you can see them on the opposite wall in the photo above) acutally comes up to the lower window ledge, makes a 90-degree bend across the bottom of the window toward the outside of the bus and then another 90 down the side of the bus. In other words, without the window in place the inner panel cups over the window opening and literally hangs in place. Then the sill is put over the top of that; it has an inner vertical support ledge for the bottom of the window frame and then makes a 90-degree bend over the outside (like a "Z" and over the inner panel). It's amazing how they put these things together!

[paul iossi]

Feedback controlled loop, I use an adjustable temp switch to turn the electric cooling fans on my 4X4, Flexlite fan makes a 12v switch with a flexable transducer that has a nifty bushing that slips between the hose and hose fitting, use it to control an Ausco solinoid valve. Use house water temp out to control heat exchanger in flow. checkout the cooling system section in a Summit Racing catalog. If you want to go high tech you can use a processor to run a PID loop with fancy pumps and valves,(not).

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by paul iossi

Feedback controlled loop, I use an adjustable temp switch to turn the electric cooling fans on my 4X4, Flexlite fan makes a 12v switch with a flexable transducer that has a nifty bushing that slips between the hose and hose fitting, use it to control an Ausco solinoid valve. Use house water temp out to control heat exchanger in flow. checkout the cooling system section in a Summit Racing catalog. If you want to go high tech you can use a processor to run a PID loop with fancy pumps and valves,(not).

I think I kept up with most of that...

I don't think I can use it on the inflow of the WTWHX (water-to-water heat exchanger...I'm tired of typing it ) because that's the main line from the engine to the front of the bus for front bus heaters (original) and defrost. But what I could do is maybe use that setup in a bypass setup on the marine water heater so that once the water heater reaches (say) 115-degrees the switch would kick in and bypass the HWH (hot water heater) but still allow full flow to the downstream blowers in the Webasto loop.

Very nice...thank you!

[the_experience03]

Just out of curiousity, how long are you looking at for this conversion?

Also...check out the anti-scald shower heads. They have a thermostat in them that will bias more towards the cool water if the output temperature is too high.

I like the idea of the rubber hose over the pex if for no other reason than if you did spring a leak, every hardware store has fittings and hose clamps o atleast stop the leak up. Pex is a little more difficult to come by.

[paul iossi]

Check the commercial HVAC sheetmetal ductwork shops, they may be able to supply galvinized sheetmetal off a roll instead of sheets, they should also be able to shear to width and break-in "anti oilcan ridges,X's",if desired. Commercial ductwork for hazardous environments is a lot heavier than household ductwork.

[Les Lampman]

Gotta love the Internet some days...

Here's the beast I believe and since it's on the domestic output of the water heater nothing has to change about the coolant loop.



From their website:

"Intended for installation at the water heater to distribute controlled temperature water through a domestic hot water system. The valve delivers water at a maximum of 120°F (49°C), allowing the heater to be set at 140°F (60°C) or higher, thus providing a greater effective volume of hot water and reducing the chances of Legionellae bacteria growth in the water. "

It goes between the incoming cold line and the outgoing hot line to mix the water to the set temp. Perfect!

[Elliot Naess]

I have bought a temperature control valve -- anti scalding valve -- for Millicent.
If I'm reading the receipt right, it's a Symmons 5-120. Cost $102.
I inquired about these things a while ago on a thread here somewhere, but I have
not reported back on it yet because I have not installed and tried it yet.
Also bought a push-button timer valve to ration shower water. Such equipment
is definitely available and is easier found at plumbing specialists than at HD or L.

[lapeer20m]

I'm very impressed with the layout of the heaters coolant lines, heat exchangers ect......

instead of the expensive finicky webasto, ever consider a standard household fuel oil boiler?

I use one in my skoolie for heating the 400 or more gallons of water in the jacuzzi.

The biggest disadvantages are size and weight, niether of which were much of a problem for me. The boiler also requires 110 volts that can be provided by an inverter. With a bit of ingenuity i think the motor could be swapped out for a 12 volt model. You'll still need a small bit of 110 volts to run the ignition system.

Boilers can be found used for the price of scrap, or even free from a heating and cooling place. The burners are dirt simple to work on, and the parts are very cheap and plentiful.

my small boiler heats water from a garden hose to above 100 degrees instantly. #2 fuel oil is the same as #2 diesel. There are several different size nozzles that allow you to burn as little or as many gallons per hour of fuel as you need.

The boiler does everything the webasto does but is more reliable, produces far more hot water, and is far far cheaper.

[GoneCamping]

Most definately use the PEX tubing... I just finished runner plumbing in my bus, and hemmed and hawed over what to use and eventually chose CPVC because I already had some of the items. As it turned out, the PEX would have been ten times simpler and in the long run I think I would have spent less money too...even if I had to buy the special tools. I actually have a friend that had the PEX tools and he was willing to loan them to me...so I found out later!!

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by the_experience03

Just out of curiousity, how long are you looking at for this conversion?

Now there's a tough question!

I'm viewing the conversion in stages.

Stage one is demolition; seats out, ceiling panels down, windows out, side panels out, rubber floor out. That ought to be done within a couple or three weeks (it's weather dependent at the moment).

Stage 2 is the alteration phase (i.e., the roof lift); that's cut the pillars, cut the back, cut across the roof, lift, cross brace, and install the side sheeting. I'd like to be done with that a couple of weeks after the demo phase ends (say by the end of February). Somewhere along the line I also need to install the new entry door.

Stage 3 is the stuff that has to get done with the walls and ceiling out like the basic wiring. There really isn't much as I'll have wiring chases under the chair rail down both sides of the bus. Shouldn't (he laughs) take any more than a couple of weeks.

Stage 4 is interior insulation and sheathing; that is, the whole interior will end up looking like a giant plywood box (see the photos of SeanF's conversion in Flagstaff). Since I'm doing the roof raise the floor will be 2x4's on edge to give me 3.5" in which to stuff as much insulation as possible, over that goes T&G subfloor, the sides will get insulated and 3/8" or 1/2" ply installed over the insualtion, the ceiling get's insulated as much as possible (about 1.75" deep) and I'll use luan doorskin material for the ceiling sheathing (maybe 1/4" but I'm not sure it'll take the bends at the outside edges so maybe 1/4" in the middle and a couple of layers of 1/8" at the bends). This phase shouldn't last more than a month or so (where are we now? mid April or so?).

Stage 5 is "the conversion" per se. This is where it gets interesting because almost all at the same time the interior is going in, tanks are getting positioned under the bus, plumbing is getting run, appliances are getting installed, wiring and lights are going in, windows are being installed, A/C is being installed, etc, etc, etc. I see this phase lasting at least a year.

Stage 6 is "everything else". This is all the finish work like the final flooring material, curtains, shades, painting, trim, TV installation, entertainment system installaion, etc. I think this could take another 6 months or so.

Stage 7 is the final fitting of all the stuff to really finish things off...it's really an eclectic stage. It includes the solar panels, awning, aluminum wheels, new driver's side glass, and all new custom built dash with all new instruments (this may happen sooner; I can't stand the current setup, nor can I see any of the gauges). This has no time frame except as it happens.

Then there are the things that don't quite fit in a specific category; I'm going to upgrade the shift to a Stone-Bennet air shift (and get rid of the very long cable system) and also install a King (probably) cruise control. Also somewhere along the line the bus will need to get painted. We're thinking something like this:



Overall, I'm thinking around 2 1/2 years to the almost finsihed stage; that is, nothing left to do but the gingerbread stuff.

One of my goals is to keep the bus as usuable as possible for as much of the time as possible so I'll try to do the things that make it undriveable in quick spurts and get the bus back on the road.

I have in mind to make Burning Man for 2007; I've never been and I can hardly stand the suspense any longer. I think I can get enough done to make the bus able to sustain us for a couple of weeks (including travel time to and from); it'll be pretty rustic but we should have a comfortable bed, water, toilet, shower and a refrigerator. I'll probably carry along a Honda EU2000 to keep the batteries up since I won't have a solar system by then. We also won't have a lot of power usage so we shouldn't be drawing down the batteries too badly at any rate. The largest load will be the refrigerator; I'll use the Honda to power the micro (if it's onboard) and the espresso maker (which will be or I won't be there!).

I like the idea of the rubber hose over the pex if for no other reason than if you did spring a leak, every hardware store has fittings and hose clamps to at least stop the leak up. Pex is a little more difficult to come by.

Agreed!

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by lapeer20m

I'm very impressed with the layout of the heaters coolant lines, heat exchangers ect......

instead of the expensive finicky webasto, ever consider a standard household fuel oil boiler?

I use one in my skoolie for heating the 400 or more gallons of water in the jacuzzi.

The biggest disadvantages are size and weight, niether of which were much of a problem for me. The boiler also requires 110 volts that can be provided by an inverter. With a bit of ingenuity i think the motor could be swapped out for a 12 volt model. You'll still need a small bit of 110 volts to run the ignition system.

Boilers can be found used for the price of scrap, or even free from a heating and cooling place. The burners are dirt simple to work on, and the parts are very cheap and plentiful.

my small boiler heats water from a garden hose to above 100 degrees instantly. #2 fuel oil is the same as #2 diesel. There are several different size nozzles that allow you to burn as little or as many gallons per hour of fuel as you need.

The boiler does everything the webasto does but is more reliable, produces far more hot water, and is far far cheaper.

Wow, I'm sorry! I missed two replies here which must have posted when I wrote the long-winded one just above this.

I'd love to know about this boiler thing. It's all new to me as I really only know boat and RV stuff. My house has a propane heater/fireplace and I've never dealt with a boiler at all. I'll do a little reseach on the 'net.

Is this like an oil-fired furnace for a house that you're talking about? But it heats water (like for use in radiators) as opposed to producing hot air? Goodness I sound dumb! But I've got to ask if I'm going to learn!

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by GoneCamping

Most definately use the PEX tubing... I just finished runner plumbing in my bus, and hemmed and hawed over what to use and eventually chose CPVC because I already had some of the items. As it turned out, the PEX would have been ten times simpler and in the long run I think I would have spent less money too...even if I had to buy the special tools. I actually have a friend that had the PEX tools and he was willing to loan them to me...so I found out later!!

Thanks Cliff. I really appreciate the feedback.

[Les Lampman]

I've just started a website for my Thomas bus conversion at:

http://www.skoolie.smugmug.com

I liked SeanF's website so much I decided to use Smugmug for mine. I maintain a couple of websites (one for my business and one for my wife's artwork), the business keeps me hopping, and I'm trying to convert my bus so I think it will be much easier on me if I just have a place to upload photos and type out what's happening rather than also dealing with site layout, maintenance, and such.

Take a look at let me know what you think; if I'm going to change things now's the time to do it!

And Sean...they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and I really like your site but if mine looking so similar (Smugmug only gives you so may options for navigation) is a problem for you please don't hesitate to say so.

[the_experience03]

Jason brings up a good point with the residential type boilers. Fuel oil boilers are somewhat tougher to find than their propane or natural gas (just an orifice change between them anyway) equivalents, but they certainly do exist. Size doesn't even need to be an issue if you spend the money to get a newer one.

One of my personal favorites from back when I was working for an HVAC company was this one.

http://www.munchkinboiler.net/

Pay close attention to those size specs. I think it compares quite favorably with a Webasto of similar output. We used to install those things in all kinds of crazy places too thanks to their size. Basement flooding an issue? Well we'll just hang it from the wall 6 feet up! They're also VERY smart and would modulate based on the number of zones calling including a priority zone for domestic hot water using a passive water heater. They were at the heart of every $30,000 system we put into the big mansions on the popular lakes up north because they worked so well, even in quad-fuel systems (gas, electric, wood, solar). Of course they come at a price....

Moral of that long winded speech? It might not hurt to at least look at residential boilers as an option, especially with that very realistic (yet ambitious!) time frame you're looking at.