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Old 04-12-2019, 11:08 AM   #41
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
Don't get me started about the "friendly local VW dealer" (I share a golf with my mom) that my parents adore who insisted that at 85000km of driving the brakes AND rotors.

I would have liked to dive into the engine myself. If the diagnosis is something other than HEUI pump or injectors I will probably try to repair it myself.

I don't trust any dealers.

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Old 04-12-2019, 11:40 AM   #42
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Location: south east BC, close to the Canadian/US border
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Year: 1975
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Chassis: 8 window
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome View Post

Dealers!
They are the ones who hire "techs" straight outta school, and pay them next to nothing while charging you more than most other shops.
Last time my mom went to a Nissan dealer (my tools were out-of-state) they misdiagnosed her problems, and sold me the wrong part to install. (then again same thing happened to me at an independent shop with my Honda - they told me fuel pump, which I bought and replaced in 30 mins with a leatherman multitool - saving me $260 in their labor and parts markup; but it was the ignition distributor that was bad, causing the fuel pump circuit to never engage - however, you could hear it pump-up the pressure at key-on when it bypassed that circuit)
A client of mine took his Chrysler minivan to the dealer for "random no-starts" - turn the key to start and the motor does not spin. They gave him a tune-up, replaced his spark plugs and wires, valve cover gasket, PCV valve, etc. etc. to a total of near $2500. He went to pick it up and the motor would not spin. The "tech" came out and tried for 10 mins, "forcing the key harder and harder" until it started, and then said, "there you go, it works." He drove it to the gas station, filled up, and it wouldn't start. Towed it back to the dealer and they charged him another $125 and scanned it and told him the transmission needed to be replaced, at a cost of $4700. He got it out of there.
His friendly neighbor, not pretending to be a tech, just guessing, installed a new starter. Nope. Notta.
Then they got my number as a mobile mechanic (I worked by reference only, and generally had a 2-week waiting period).
I looked at it and told him first: "the dealer ripped you off; the tune up has nothing to do with the motor spinning".
I scanned it for free and verified the transmission code, and found no power sent to the "engage" terminal of the starter when turning the key to start, but had no wiring diagrams (and did not yet know where to find them free). I found them through the public library website (that job forced me to find them, and made my future repairs so much smoother!), and noted the tranny error code circuit was part of the starter circuit. Back at his van, I pulled a relay where these two circuits interconnect and found no power where there should be power at key-on, but had power at "start." The "start" pin never got power.
So I tore apart his steering column, tested his ignition switch, and it was bad. The cylinder had come apart inside, and the electrical contact points had rotated out of alignment. That made relays "click" and things seem to come to life when you tried to start the vehicle, disguising its problems.
new switch was $20, and I charged him $90 (since I spent more time bumbling around without a wiring diagram than I did actually fixing the problem). The tranny error code went away when the circuits received power the way they should. The dealer would not refund him, and unfortunately his credit card would not accept "my" diagnosis and expert opinion, because, well, to them I'm a hippie, not a shop. (I'm not a hippie!)



Moral of the story: dealers suck, modern systems are intertwined and you can't simply make assumptions, and therefore computer error codes are starting points not necessarily a diagnosis.
But don't let me bummer your day...just be wary and smart...and at 19, you got plenty of brain juice left to learn ya some tech and mechanic skills, and at least save yourself from getting ripped.
my son is a mechanic - spent most of 20 years working in GM dealerships - at the last dealership he worked at he spent a lot of his time diagnosing problems for the other mechanics, to the point it was taking away from the money he could earn when the dealership charged 'book' times for repairs - he finally got annoyed enough about it to complain - got a nice raise and a 'Title' for his position - wasn't too long after that when he opened his own shop and he hasn't looked back
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:42 AM   #43
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleddgracer View Post
my son is a mechanic - spent most of 20 years working in GM dealerships - at the last dealership he worked at he spent a lot of his time diagnosing problems for the other mechanics, to the point it was taking away from the money he could earn when the dealership charged 'book' times for repairs - he finally got annoyed enough about it to complain - got a nice raise and a 'Title' for his position - wasn't too long after that when he opened his own shop and he hasn't looked back
I wish I could find a good independent HD/MD diesel mechanic in Toronto. They're super hard to find
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:21 PM   #44
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Rated Cap: 26 foot
"good" techs at dealers get great paying specialized jobs.
When I worked for an independent European shop, the owner got sick, and I got "stuck" with replacing an AC evaporator behind the dash of a 2000ish Mercedes. WOW what a project. Took me several days. Job bills at 21 hours, if I remember.
Another tech there told me a guy at the Mercedes dealership had that specific job, and only that job. He could do 2 per day, and got paid 42 hours of labor per day.
The Subaru Mazda dealership in Hilo wanted to hire me with 10 years of experience to be their used car guy, to know about every other make and model out there, have all the individual tools needed for them all, etc, be there at the rediculous time of 06:00, and offered me $10/hr actual time, not flat rate as the guy above.
"Can you pass a drug test?" SURE.
So I smoked a fat fat joint on the way to give them my piss.
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Old 04-12-2019, 01:00 PM   #45
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Posts: 1,222
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Engine: 5.9L 24V-L6 Cummins ISB
Rated Cap: 26 foot
Oh and how could I forget!
Then there is the school bus dealer in Tucson that sold the bus new to the school system I bought my bus from.
When I bought my bus, I had to practically jump up and down on the brake pedal to stop the bus. Seemed very wrong to me, but I had never driven air brakes before. "How could a little old lady be a bus driver?" I'm a mountain man, and have strong legs.
Google hooked me up with the repair shop, which just happened to be the same school bus dealer that sold the bus new. I told them my fears about the brakes, and told them to inspect the entire brake system, since I had no experience with air brakes (and brakes are the most vital part of the vehicle!) and I only had a bent flat-end screwdriver a small Wallyworld set of sockets with some missing.
"Everythings fine" they told me. "That will be $250."
Three days later the pedal valve (the main part that actuates the brakes) went out as I exited the highway. I just barely made it safely to a parking lot. I replaced it, and the brakes work great, with little pressure from my foot.
DEALERS. Ha!
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Old 04-12-2019, 03:59 PM   #46
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: E Central Tejas
Posts: 2,094
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: IH 3800, 8 window
Engine: T444E w/ Spicer 5-speed MT
Rated Cap: I prefer broad-brims hats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome View Post

Dealers!
They are the ones who hire "techs" straight outta school, and pay them next to nothing while charging you more than most other shops.
Last time my mom went to a Nissan dealer (my tools were out-of-state) they misdiagnosed her problems, and sold me the wrong part to install. (then again same thing happened to me at an independent shop with my Honda - they told me fuel pump, which I bought and replaced in 30 mins with a leatherman multitool - saving me $260 in their labor and parts markup; but it was the ignition distributor that was bad, causing the fuel pump circuit to never engage - however, you could hear it pump-up the pressure at key-on when it bypassed that circuit)
A client of mine took his Chrysler minivan to the dealer for "random no-starts" - turn the key to start and the motor does not spin. They gave him a tune-up, replaced his spark plugs and wires, valve cover gasket, PCV valve, etc. etc. to a total of near $2500. He went to pick it up and the motor would not spin. The "tech" came out and tried for 10 mins, "forcing the key harder and harder" until it started, and then said, "there you go, it works." He drove it to the gas station, filled up, and it wouldn't start. Towed it back to the dealer and they charged him another $125 and scanned it and told him the transmission needed to be replaced, at a cost of $4700. He got it out of there.
His friendly neighbor, not pretending to be a tech, just guessing, installed a new starter. Nope. Notta.
Then they got my number as a mobile mechanic (I worked by reference only, and generally had a 2-week waiting period).
I looked at it and told him first: "the dealer ripped you off; the tune up has nothing to do with the motor spinning".
I scanned it for free[emoji3] and verified the transmission code, and found no power sent to the "engage" terminal of the starter when turning the key to start, but had no wiring diagrams (and did not yet know where to find them free). I found them through the public library website (that job forced me to find them, and made my future repairs so much smoother!), and noted the tranny error code circuit was part of the starter circuit. Back at his van, I pulled a relay where these two circuits interconnect and found no power where there should be power at key-on, but had power at "start." The "start" pin never got power.
So I tore apart his steering column, tested his ignition switch, and it was bad. The cylinder had come apart inside, and the electrical contact points had rotated out of alignment. That made relays "click" and things seem to come to life when you tried to start the vehicle, disguising its problems.
new switch was $20, and I charged him $90 (since I spent more time bumbling around without a wiring diagram than I did actually fixing the problem). The tranny error code went away when the circuits received power the way they should. The dealer would not refund him, and unfortunately his credit card would not accept "my" diagnosis and expert opinion, because, well, to them I'm a hippie, not a shop. (I'm not a hippie!)



Moral of the story: dealers suck, modern systems are intertwined and you can't simply make assumptions, and therefore computer error codes are starting points not necessarily a diagnosis.
But don't let me bummer your day...just be wary and smart...and at 19, you got plenty of brain juice left to learn ya some tech and mechanic skills, and at least save yourself from getting ripped.
You say, "hippie," as if it were a [i]bad[i/] thing... [emoji111]
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Old 04-12-2019, 04:00 PM   #47
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Chassis: IH 3800, 8 window
Engine: T444E w/ Spicer 5-speed MT
Rated Cap: I prefer broad-brims hats
Dang! Misplaced my italics.

Where did I set them down..?
Quote:
Originally Posted by haz.matt.1960 View Post
You say, "hippie," as if it were a [i]bad[i/] thing... [emoji111]
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:13 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haz.matt.1960 View Post
You say, "hippie," as if it were a [i]bad[i/] thing... [emoji111]
Hippies, Mountain Men, and Cowboys. Three brothers. All have a love of the Earth in common, all roam free.
The hippie is the ultra "liberal" for lack of a better word.
The cowboy is the ultra "conservative" for lack of a better word.
The mountain man embraces the best of both ideals, shunning the waste.

The hippie is the wild one, ready to try any drug you throw at 'em.
The cowboy sips his whiskey, pounds a beer when needed, but shuns much else.
The mountain man knows what herbs and medicinals to embrace, and what is foolish self-indulgence and danger to be completely avoided forever.
The hippie runs naked through the woods with no direction, tripping over the flowers they see growing out of the ground.
The cowboy walks a strait and narrow line across the prairies with goal in mind, and work at hand.
The mountain man hikes the ridgelines wherever they go, in balance, no matter how hard or narrow to get there, above it all, just because the view is so beautiful.
long hair to my butt crack. beard longer below my chin than the distance from my longest finger to my wrist. vegan. Dr. Bronner's liquid castile soap lover. tie die wearer. bud smoker. mind-manifester. People always get me confused with my brother hippies. Except when I wore my wide-brim leather hat for hiking in Wyoming; the high-elevation at 10,000+ feet filters less UV light, and high-latitude makes the sum lower in the sky, so you can get sunburn. (Not to mention my cousin died at age 21 from skin cancer that started on her face.) Anyway, some people called me a cowboy.
When I was a teenager, I commonly wore camo army fatigue pants, Danner "military" boots, a tie-die, and held my long hair with a baseball cap. Had a goatee then. People didn't know what to make of me.
hippie's not a bad thing. But I'm not a hippie.
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:33 PM   #49
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Location: south east BC, close to the Canadian/US border
Posts: 2,265
Year: 1975
Coachwork: Chevy
Chassis: 8 window
Engine: 454 LS7
Rated Cap: 24,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome View Post
Hippies, Mountain Men, and Cowboys. Three brothers. All have a love of the Earth in common, all roam free.
The hippie is the ultra "liberal" for lack of a better word.
The cowboy is the ultra "conservative" for lack of a better word.
The mountain man embraces the best of both ideals, shunning the waste.

The hippie is the wild one, ready to try any drug you throw at 'em.
The cowboy sips his whiskey, pounds a beer when needed, but shuns much else.
The mountain man knows what herbs and medicinals to embrace, and what is foolish self-indulgence and danger to be completely avoided forever.
The hippie runs naked through the woods with no direction, tripping over the flowers they see growing out of the ground.
The cowboy walks a strait and narrow line across the prairies with goal in mind, and work at hand.
The mountain man hikes the ridgelines wherever they go, in balance, no matter how hard or narrow to get there, above it all, just because the view is so beautiful.
long hair to my butt crack. beard longer below my chin than the distance from my longest finger to my wrist. vegan. Dr. Bronner's liquid castile soap lover. tie die wearer. bud smoker. mind-manifester. People always get me confused with my brother hippies. Except when I wore my wide-brim leather hat for hiking in Wyoming; the high-elevation at 10,000+ feet filters less UV light, and high-latitude makes the sum lower in the sky, so you can get sunburn. (Not to mention my cousin died at age 21 from skin cancer that started on her face.) Anyway, some people called me a cowboy.
When I was a teenager, I commonly wore camo army fatigue pants, Danner "military" boots, a tie-die, and held my long hair with a baseball cap. Had a goatee then. People didn't know what to make of me.
hippie's not a bad thing. But I'm not a hippie.
parts of my area are called hippie heaven - some were in their 20's when they moved here in the 60's - some came to escape the draft - there is also a lot of logging and mining in the area, a huge smelter, and a pulp mill, as well as the office workers that handle all the paper work needed - when you stop in the pub Friday after work to have a beer, they might all be at the table you sit at, but you may not be able to tell how they live their life by how they dress - the hippie may be a foreman on a logging crew, or the flowered dress and flowers in the hair may be the executive secretary for the head honcho at the pulp mill, or the guy wearing caulked boots may have never worked in the bush, but they are the best boots to get around in his commune 'up the valley' - you learn, sooner or later, that they are all just people getting by as best they can
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:14 PM   #50
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
No progress on the bus at the dealer. I bought them new batteries as I'm 95% sure they the current ones are bad. Hopefully that will help when they try to diagnose on Monday.

But on a happier note, I picked up these lovely Altec 806/811 horns and compression drivers. These, and bass bins I have to build will become the buses audio system. Even just testing them out hooked up to a small amp at low power, they sound incredible. The mid-midhis sound so naturally and lifelike. Very excited to get these installed.Click image for larger version

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Old 04-17-2019, 10:10 AM   #51
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Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
Bus is back from the dealer. Recall is done but it's still missing on one of the cylinders.

Turns out the cause of the low power and stall was......

A faulty fuel gauge and no fuel in the tank. The dealer tried to bill me for $1700 for 8 hours of work while misleading me on phone calls to think that what they were doing was still covered by the 2 hours of work I authorized. They never mentioned that everything else they would be doing to fix it was additional. They jumped into looking at the HEUI system and ECM before doing the basics. By the shop managers admission they fell down a rabbit hole with it.

It took them 6 hours of work at $159 an hour to find out that..... THE TANK WAS EMPTY and the fuel sender is faulty. They "had to add 124L of Diesel to the tank" to get it running and tried to bill 1.5 hours for that and a test drive plus $200 for the fuel

I went in this morning and negotiated the labour down to 3 hours, which imo is excessive, and their cost on fuel and shop supplies. Total was $800. The service writers and shop managers were rude and beligerant and the only reason I got it down was that a shop manager overheard and decided I wasn't worth the trouble and wanted the bus out.

To anyone reading this. Do not ever go to Premier Truck Group of Mississauga

After spending all of this, I still have to now diagnose a misfire and battery drain overnight myself...

What a sh***y way to spend a week without the bus. Never again.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:11 AM   #52
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
Here's the invoice...Click image for larger version

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Old 04-17-2019, 11:39 AM   #53
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Location: E Central Tejas
Posts: 2,094
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: IH 3800, 8 window
Engine: T444E w/ Spicer 5-speed MT
Rated Cap: I prefer broad-brims hats
Oh, drat! And here I was planning on driving up there from Texas to have them adjust my wing mirrors...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab01ns View Post
Here's the invoice...Attachment 31968
At 2L/min, were they putting it in with an eyedropper? One would think several imperial gallons would suffice for the troubleshooting.

And a half hour billed to sound the tank? You were screwed without benefit of getting dinner and dancing, first.

How is your back today? Mine would be wrecked from such a prolonged ankle-grabbing...
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:56 AM   #54
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
Quote:
Originally Posted by haz.matt.1960 View Post
Oh, drat! And here I was planning on driving up there from Texas to have them adjust my wing mirrors...At 2L/min, were they putting it in with an eyedropper? One would think several imperial gallons would suffice for the troubleshooting.

And a half hour billed to sound the tank? You were screwed without benefit of getting dinner and dancing, first.

How is your back today? Mine would be wrecked from such a prolonged ankle-grabbing...
Don't forget priming it at one push of the primer per minute too.

My back is perpetually sore. I work a desk job [emoji854]

I paid the $800 to get it out. Still going to go after them for a refund after the fact. Or just be as much trouble as possible.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:01 PM   #55
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Location: Damascus, OR
Posts: 681
Year: 2004
Chassis: International
Engine: T444e w/ 2000 Allison Trans
Rated Cap: 35
Ouch. That invoice is painful to look at.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:44 PM   #56
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
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Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
From what I’m seeing of dealers in the car world are that if it isn’t warranty or recall work they don’t really like to do it and so they make it difficult for anyone else.. after all recalls pay very well typically and warranty work is on new stuff that isn’t grimy greasy seized and rusted.. they can get paid book time but beat it by half.. the dealer smiles when they see me in my Dodge Ram.. “ 4 recalls and an oil change” all under zero charge plan for me but they get to wrench on a 2 year old truck with 7000 miles
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:48 PM   #57
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
From what I’m seeing of dealers in the car world are that if it isn’t warranty or recall work they don’t really like to do it and so they make it difficult for anyone else.. after all recalls pay very well typically and warranty work is on new stuff that isn’t grimy greasy seized and rusted.. they can get paid book time but beat it by half.. the dealer smiles when they see me in my Dodge Ram.. “ 4 recalls and an oil change” all under zero charge plan for me but they get to wrench on a 2 year old truck with 7000 miles
They used the recall to basically force me to ok the initial labor with them. The whole thing was shaaaadddddddyyyy
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:42 PM   #58
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,856
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
I am so sorry you had a bad experience with your Freightliner dealer. I would urge you to take it up with their management ... Penske.


Our Freightliner dealer here is Premier Truck Group as well. Here, they are top-notch and very helpful. Yes, the hourly rate is high (also $159.00/hour) but they go over EVERYTHING with me *before* starting anything. They even talked me out of an air compressor replacement because it was only a dirty filter. I was sure the compressor was bad as it would take close to an hour to get the tanks to pressure. Most any other dealer or shop would have replaced the compressor and charged their book for it. They have also had the lowest prices for most all parts for our Thomas.


Your Premier Truck Group needs to be called out and reported.
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:46 PM   #59
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: GTA
Posts: 159
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Buses
Chassis: FS-65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 66/44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
I am so sorry you had a bad experience with your Freightliner dealer. I would urge you to take it up with their management ... Penske.


Our Freightliner dealer here is Premier Truck Group as well. Here, they are top-notch and very helpful. Yes, the hourly rate is high (also $159.00/hour) but they go over EVERYTHING with me *before* starting anything. They even talked me out of an air compressor replacement because it was only a dirty filter. I was sure the compressor was bad as it would take close to an hour to get the tanks to pressure. Most any other dealer or shop would have replaced the compressor and charged their book for it. They have also had the lowest prices for most all parts for our Thomas.


Your Premier Truck Group needs to be called out and reported.
$159 USD. OUCH!!

I will be taking it further up the chain believe me. Thankfully I'm an argumentative jerk** who knows just enough to see through what they're trying to pull. I would hate to think that other skoolie folks like myself had the same issues but didn't know enough to get out of their ridiculous billing and had no choice but to pay. $800 is far enough, the $1727 they quoted would have been enough to seriously screw over my finances for quite a while. That's basically 3 month's rent for me!


** When required. I was very polite when I went in today
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:14 PM   #60
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,764
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovobay View Post
Ouch. That invoice is painful to look at.
Not as bad as mine- it was over 9 grand.
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