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Old 02-04-2016, 02:52 AM   #1
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lacey, Wa
Posts: 8
Year: 1990
Coachwork: Amtrans
Chassis: International
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 36
Blue Magic

1990 International bus with an Amtrans body. Conventional bus. 32 feet long. Painted a very beautiful blue. We are tearing on the seats and today we discovered that there is a lot of wood rot underneath the floor. I took out some seat bolts and water drained out of the holes. That was a bit disappointing so I am worried about how much rust I may find under the floor. The outside of the bus looks good as does the underside of the bus. Where did all that moisture come from? Now I have to wonder about what's behind the side panels. Mold in the insulation? We only have about six seats out so far. Even some of the seat bolts were rusted. Some of the bolts are hard to get to. But I will keep everyone posted on our progress!

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Old 02-04-2016, 12:22 PM   #2
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Valley - Arizona
Posts: 644
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freight-shaker (Freightliner)
Engine: Cat 3126b 250 HP
Rated Cap: Only 1 seat
Water coming from bolt holes says to me you have most likely got wheel well rott from the winterizing of the highways.

Regardless, if it is that wet under there, be prepared to rip the floor out right away to let it "dry" out and start your damage control.

-Doc
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:49 PM   #3
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Snowflake, Arizona
Posts: 343
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: All American Rear Engine
Engine: C-8.3-300 Cummins MD3060
Rated Cap: 40 Prisoners
Our bus, 1996 Bluebird All American was from Western Washington and when
we removed the flooring we found a fair amount of rust. Apparently the
maintenance crew considered a once a month cleaning with a power washer
was proper care for bus floors even in a high humidity climate like Seattle. Of
course all the low spots in the floor held the majority of the water.
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Old 02-05-2016, 01:16 AM   #4
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
Get the seats out and all the wood pulled up. I found that an enormous pry bar and patience were the best tools.

Mine was pretty crusty in a lot of places, and all the plywood saturated, moldy, and falling apart but no rot or rust holes anywhere. Another year or two it would have become swiss cheese.

They nailed the wood into the steel with spiral shank nails, hundreds of them. Many were rusted so badly they looked like burnt matches. I knocked all those out, too.

Finally, use an air needle scaler to remove the thick rust scale, and see what's left. If it needs patching weld it, don't just use fiberglass body filler. It might be galvanized steel so watch for that.

Once I was done descaling, I went back with a bunch of cup brush and wheel brush grinder wheels, followed by a dressing of fan disc abrasives. Finally, everything was rust converted with like 4 gallons of phosphoric converter. The "kleen strip etch and prep" from home depot is inexpensive and works great. Don't get it on your clothes, skin or eyes and use a resperator.

I mopped that stuff over the course of about 3 days in the summer, and got all the rust I could see.

FINALLY, sweep and clean your surface and seal with paint. If the metal was ever galvanized, do NOT use a oil based paint, use a latex paint. Killz 2 works great.

Oil based alkyd paints react with the zinc to saponify into a complex zinc salt based soap substance. (Alkyds are very basic, just like lye and oil make soaps) at which point adhesion is lost and it becomes a moisture trap.

Latex based paints won't react that way.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:42 AM   #5
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lacey, Wa
Posts: 8
Year: 1990
Coachwork: Amtrans
Chassis: International
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 36
Thanks for the replys!

Yes I am still in the process of getting the seats out and then the rotten floor removed. One question I have is that I have two floor heaters on the bus both located towards the front with one on each side of the bus. When I am redoing the new floor what should I do with these two heaters? Do I need to take them out to remove the old floor? Or are they mounted in there some way that makes easy removal? I was thinking of keeping them and then building around them somehow.
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:36 AM   #6
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
Remove them for now, you'll just damage the heater cores. The heater lines are probably 1" or so. Get some brass double barb connectors from the hardware store and join the coolant lines together. Pinch the lines off on both sides first so they don't pour coolant everywhere. Then replace the heater with the double barbed fitting.

Depending on what you're doing you can re route them under the body or just build around them.
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Old 02-09-2016, 01:19 AM   #7
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lacey, Wa
Posts: 8
Year: 1990
Coachwork: Amtrans
Chassis: International
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 36
More seats out tonight!

Got two more seats out tonight. The toughest ones so far were the two over the back tires. I ended up grinding down the bolts and then cutting them off. The wood is soft and rotted so I was able the get under the bolt by going through the mat to get get to the bolts. Can't wait to rip up the floor. I have 10 seats left. I have removed a total of 8 already. I also installed new headlights that are extra bright. Got them from a trucker store. I am also redoing all of the reflectors and adding led lights to everything else that lights up. I want to be seen plus they look great too.
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Old 02-10-2016, 03:11 PM   #8
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
It's always fun replacing all the old crusty light fixtures with new nice ones.

Get those seats out! Just grind them all and get it done. Use a punch to kick the bolts through the floor.

Wear a respirator when you pull the floors out, the moldy crap is not good to breathe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleMagicGuy View Post
Got two more seats out tonight. The toughest ones so far were the two over the back tires. I ended up grinding down the bolts and then cutting them off. The wood is soft and rotted so I was able the get under the bolt by going through the mat to get get to the bolts. Can't wait to rip up the floor. I have 10 seats left. I have removed a total of 8 already. I also installed new headlights that are extra bright. Got them from a trucker store. I am also redoing all of the reflectors and adding led lights to everything else that lights up. I want to be seen plus they look great too.
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:48 PM   #9
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lacey, Wa
Posts: 8
Year: 1990
Coachwork: Amtrans
Chassis: International
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 36
Yes I just got a respirator mask. Burnt rubber, steel, old wood and mold don't make for a fun night! I just got some more Led lights today. We only have about 4 seats left to remove. The entire floor is rotted. At least the plywood is where I checked it in a few spots. I hope the floor is not all rusted through. I don't see any rust from underneath the bus at least. With all the water I think someone must have been washing out the bus floor. As there are no obvious leaks or holes in the roof. Thanks everyone so far for the responses. I always welcome any ideas too!
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:38 AM   #10
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
If you have luggage bays they are also probably covered with rotted plywood.
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:07 PM   #11
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 56
Year: 1994
Chassis: Blue Bird TC2000
Engine: Cummins 5.9 12V
Rated Cap: ??...It's 28' long
Very Cool! I'm over in Everett and getting ready to work on my 1994 Blue Bird T2000 5.9 Cummins. Much shorter at 28' total but I didn't want a monster to drive around.
Thanks for sharing your hard work. I'm going to be pulling out floors this weekend! WHoo HOoo! And it looks like a weekend full of the usual Seattle rain too.
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Old 02-16-2016, 01:43 AM   #12
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Location: Lacey, Wa
Posts: 8
Year: 1990
Coachwork: Amtrans
Chassis: International
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 36
Seats Are Out!

Ok we got the all the seats out! Now I just have to remove them from the bus and take the metal to the recycle place. Then I can start in on the tearing up the floor. I do have to remove two regular heaters and what looks like an electric heater. Progress seems slow but at least I am making progress. I think I drained the battery. I tried to use a jump box but it was not enough to get the bus to start. The bus has two batteries connected together. So maybe I should try hooking up my truck and jumping the batteries.
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Old 02-16-2016, 02:58 AM   #13
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
Have I seen your bus, parked over in south Everett? I swear I've seen a tc2000 that looked like someone was converting. I'm in lynnwood just south of 128th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizzabus View Post
Very Cool! I'm over in Everett and getting ready to work on my 1994 Blue Bird T2000 5.9 Cummins. Much shorter at 28' total but I didn't want a monster to drive around.
Thanks for sharing your hard work. I'm going to be pulling out floors this weekend! WHoo HOoo! And it looks like a weekend full of the usual Seattle rain too.
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Old 02-16-2016, 03:03 AM   #14
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
Try charging batteries overnight with a smart charger. A good guess is about 1600 CCA to get the engine started.

Take a look at that "electric heater" it might be a booster pump for engine coolant to the front. If you rip the stuff out and make it inop, you will loose your windshield defrosting ability.

As for junking the seats, scrap price for steel is pennies - I advertise free scrap metal on craigslist and always have like 5 people jumping at it and they come get it. (I just leave on curb)

It saves a lot of time, unless you're into that thing which is totally cool.

I sort of wish I had saved a seat or two to make a booth or something but oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleMagicGuy View Post
Ok we got the all the seats out! Now I just have to remove them from the bus and take the metal to the recycle place. Then I can start in on the tearing up the floor. I do have to remove two regular heaters and what looks like an electric heater. Progress seems slow but at least I am making progress. I think I drained the battery. I tried to use a jump box but it was not enough to get the bus to start. The bus has two batteries connected together. So maybe I should try hooking up my truck and jumping the batteries.
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:22 AM   #15
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 56
Year: 1994
Chassis: Blue Bird TC2000
Engine: Cummins 5.9 12V
Rated Cap: ??...It's 28' long
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsb View Post
Have I seen your bus, parked over in south Everett? I swear I've seen a tc2000 that looked like someone was converting. I'm in lynnwood just south of 128th.
Yes! That's probably me. Over in "Christmas Tree Lane" across from Costco. Cool!!

Boy, have I got some questions for you, Aaronsb!! Storage options, paint shops...stuff like that. I don't want to hijack SeattleMagicGuy's thread though. He's movin' along!!

Thank you for sharing your adventure, SeattleMagicGuy! Fun doing all this work in the cold rain, isn't it? Yuck!
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Old 02-19-2016, 01:50 AM   #16
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lacey, Wa
Posts: 8
Year: 1990
Coachwork: Amtrans
Chassis: International
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 36
Seats are out and started floor.

Got all the seats out and scrapped them. Got a big $9 from the scrap yard for 18 seats. Today I started tearing up the floor. Glad I listened to you guys. The plywood was soaked and rotten in a lot of places. So far I just tore up the wood from the wheel wells back and it looks like about 80% of that area is covered in rust. I think most is surface rust. Went to Home Depot and got my wheel wire spinning thing to remove the surface rust. There were a few rusty nails and screws that I knocked out still in the floor. How should I patch the holes in the floor before I paint? Thanks for all the ideas and help so far everybody. And a special thanks to aaronsb for your ideas and responses.
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Old 02-21-2016, 12:34 AM   #17
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
Since I was covering the floor with foam insulation, I didn't even worry about filling the bolt holes and nail holes in the floor. They made great drain holes when I washed the floor several times with rust converter.

You need to look for areas that have deep rust or flakes. Go buy a needle scaler from harbor freight, and use it like either a scraper at a steep angle to the work surface, or perpendicular to hammer out and loosen the rust. You basically need to see new or unrusted metal everywhere, or it will keep growing.


Don't use an oil based primer on this metal because it is probably galvanized and you will have problems. If its galvanized, use a water based primer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleMagicGuy View Post
Got all the seats out and scrapped them. Got a big $9 from the scrap yard for 18 seats. Today I started tearing up the floor. Glad I listened to you guys. The plywood was soaked and rotten in a lot of places. So far I just tore up the wood from the wheel wells back and it looks like about 80% of that area is covered in rust. I think most is surface rust. Went to Home Depot and got my wheel wire spinning thing to remove the surface rust. There were a few rusty nails and screws that I knocked out still in the floor. How should I patch the holes in the floor before I paint? Thanks for all the ideas and help so far everybody. And a special thanks to aaronsb for your ideas and responses.
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Old 02-21-2016, 07:25 PM   #18
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 56
Year: 1994
Chassis: Blue Bird TC2000
Engine: Cummins 5.9 12V
Rated Cap: ??...It's 28' long
I understood from some other posts here that Ospho was good to use on the rust after you knocked the loose stuff off.

No?

I just ordered some from Ace in Silver Lake.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:06 PM   #19
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 RE
Engine: 8.3l Cummins
Rated Cap: 78
Home depot has lots of stuff. Get the "kleen strip prep and etch" its in a gallon jug and is green. After you have mechanically removed thick rust, wire wheeled, flap disc grind, hammer whatevered the rest, there will still be rust left over. That rust you can then chemically convert. I use a very stiff bristled plastic brush and a bucket with rubber boots and a respirator + tyvek painting suit.

For the 40' bus I applied approximately 3 gallons over the floor and about 1.5 gallons of the stuff in the basement storage over a few days.

I bought an enormous bag of baking soda from cash and carry, which was cheaper than the soda blasting media I usually use.

After the acid has had time to work (8 hours with some heat) I do an initial rinse with hot water and baking soda in a mop bucket mix ratio about 20:1. I'll alternate between that and regular hose water until I don't get any more fizz then just a few more rinses with hose water.

I immediately follow-up with an electric leaf blower to push the rest of the water out and then heater to ensure its dry.

After that process a few times its rust free and ready for a water based primer since the floor was previously galvanized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizzabus View Post
I understood from some other posts here that Ospho was good to use on the rust after you knocked the loose stuff off.

No?

I just ordered some from Ace in Silver Lake.
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Old 03-03-2016, 01:20 AM   #20
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lacey, Wa
Posts: 8
Year: 1990
Coachwork: Amtrans
Chassis: International
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 36
Surprise! Like Rivits Weren't Bad Enough!

Ok seats are all out. 85% of the crappy plywood floor is out. Still have to get around the heaters and such. Rust on the floor was fairly wide spread but most was surface rust with just a few pockets of deeper rust. I ground out all the scaly rust. And today started removing the side panels to get at the insulation but to our surprise other than I hate Rivit removal guess what...the side panels are all spot welded every 1/2 inch to the bottom of the window frame! So we got the first 6 foot piece of interior panel removed only to struggle with the welding. And the insulation was fairly good under three Windows but water was coming inside from the bottoms of the window ledge. So I will have to use some kind of silicone or something to seal each window ledge. I did not see any black mold so that is good. I removed the insulation and noticed when I pressed on the exterior skin from the inside that there was moisture between where they put the calking or sealant. So I am thinking of painting the inside exterior panels before I add insulation. Any thoughts on anything I posted? Any one else experience spot welds by the Windows?
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