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Old 10-22-2018, 05:59 PM   #11
Skoolie
 
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Hi Cadillac Chris - I have briefly thought about doing things to the engine but since I didn't have the bus yet, it was futile. One thing that intrigues me is the propane injection valve. Seems like with little additional complexity and nothing permanently done to the engine, additional torque, hp and MPG would be nice.

As for larger injectors and turbo, at 8.x MPG now, the thought of more fuel burn is slowing down me exploring in that area.

Changing the R&P, I agree there are issues there but they can all be worked out. Ideally if I could get 6th gear unlocked, that would be sufficient for me.
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:16 PM   #12
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Funny thing with diesels. Often (not always) you can turn up the fuel screw and actually get better mpg's (?). Usually need to advance the timing a small bit as well.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:20 PM   #13
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My paperwork is already in the mail to Vermont. No need to register it here in California.

I will eventually register it internationally to have dual registration.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:21 PM   #14
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The idea of propane injection intrigues me. Not that I’m gonna do it but... maybe. Who knows.
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Old 10-23-2018, 06:51 AM   #15
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Tango - unfortunately on the 466E you cant control the fuel with screws.. the amount of fueling is controlled by the throttle pedal.. the injectors do the high pressure fuel through a diaphram and piston, so lift-pressure fuel goes into the injector and then high pressure engine oil is used as hydraulic fluid to press the diaphram down and "break" the injector. the timing is computer controlled too.. you can "fool" the computer by making it think that its high pressure oil reading is lower than what it realy is so it will increase the hydraulic pressure and inject more fuel... I havent figured out a way yet to advance the timing on the electronic engine.



that said, I do plan to do exactly as you say on my mewchanical DTA-360 bus.. since I have an MT-643 trans in it now I can turn up the smoke a little without worries..



the DT466E in the OP bus is an EGR engine, im not sure how propane responds with EGR.. im intruiged by the idea of it in general, but I still question how you control the timing, the DT's are pretty high compression.. does the propane not burn until the diesel fuel starts to burn?


-Christopher
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Old 10-23-2018, 11:08 AM   #16
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Hi Christopher,
I have a 2001 DT466E with the MD3060 and when I climb grades I have to keep it to the floor typically or it shifts to a higher gear hence I loose my MPH and RPM is this common? It will climb a pretty good grade even pulling my Jeep at the lowest 45mph but the foot to the floor and shift timing just seems wrong? I don't know what the dif ratio is and I doubt it was changed after it left the school yard and maybe that's how you drive them?
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Old 10-23-2018, 11:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
the DT466E in the OP bus is an EGR engine, im not sure how propane responds with EGR.. im intruiged by the idea of it in general, but I still question how you control the timing, the DT's are pretty high compression.. does the propane not burn until the diesel fuel starts to burn?
My understanding with a Propane Injection system is that the propane is injected between the air intake and the turbo. It is mixed with air and then blended in the cylinder with the diesel. There is a vacuum line from post turbo back to the propane solenoid valve to control how much propane is injected into the airflow.

The idea is that because diesel only burns about 70%. the added propane allows for a higher burn rate of diesel, thus requiring less fuel for the same amount of power produced.

An added benefit of the propane is that it is cooler and burns cooler so while the engine is burning more of the fuel in the cylinders, it is burning cooler.

It's just like NO burners in street rods - it allows for more of the primary fuel to burn, creating more power from the same amount of fuel. The other side of this is that because there is more power is provided by the same amount of fuel, less fuel is required to do ordinary tasks so the fuel economy is improved.

Since there are no modifications to the engine (other than an injection port pre-turbo and a vacuum port post-turbo), it's easy to turn on and off, and remove.

The cooler burn also allows for better longevity on the core engine parts.

It can be controlled by a switch in the cab, you can even get systems that will allow for tuning from the cab.

I have seen stats from customer/fleet studies that claim 30% increased power and milage. Economically, driving 10,000 miles will pay for itself (tank and install not included).

The major drawback to this system, is that to use it, you have to stop and fill the propane tank. The rate I've seen is a 1:7 propane to diesel burn rate. So with a 65gal diesel tank, you would need a ~10gal LP tank. Propane is not available at every gas station and you would need to search for them. I would prefer to get a larger LP tank (29gal) so I wouldn't have to fill up with every diesel stop.
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Old 10-23-2018, 11:32 AM   #18
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the throttle mapping on the 466E is a little wierd... the throttle is always trying to take the engine to a desired RPM... the pedal doesnt relate directly to how much fueling is going on... in a mechanical diesel, if the pump has linear vaslve.. you move it to 50% and you are fueling at 50%. .. if the engine is unloaded, the RPM's may soar to redline governor... if you are in neutral and start pressing the throttle on a 444e or 466e you'll notice it goes to a certain RPM and holds.. the engine will do whatever it takes to reach that RPM.. if you are lugging it in a higher gear it will fuel fully in attempt to reachj the desired RPM of the pedal. the result is once you reach 100% engine load factor. the pedal feels like it does nothing..



this scenerio makes it a total Pain to program a transmission to react correctly.. make the TCM to sensitive and you hunt all the time.. make it always want high throttle and it never wants to downshift..



ive found the factory programs on busses like to prefer higher gears... (it makes the EPA happier I think).. diesels like lower RPM but not to be lugged.. they allow you to lkick it down by going full throttle which puts the TCM into 'kickdown' mode. and the kickdown program is almost always going to allow you to run the engine up to the RPM governor before it will upshift on its own .. this also mimicks the operation of the pre-electronic transmissions like the MT-643. in 2001 you were only the 2nd model year after release of the allison 2000. so im sure they were still learning.. that will have a 3rd gen TCM. the 4th and 5th gen TCM;s got a lot better at attempting to learn and adapt..



yours sounds like it works like id expect.
-Christopher
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Old 10-26-2018, 07:23 AM   #19
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Hi Christopher,
Thanks for your detailed explanation, sounds like all is well and she's just doing what she's supposed to thankfully. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me
Michael
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Old 01-07-2019, 06:44 PM   #20
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We went to Guatemala to visit family over the holidays and I did some research on the chicken busses. Here are a couple that I really like.

One interesting thing I found out is that they replace MOST automatic transmissions with a Spicer 7/8-speed manual. Don't know the model(s) but I thought it was interesting.

Another thing I found out is that the cost of these conversions inclusive of de-rusting, mechanical, inside electric (for charging phones, TV, etc) and outside paint and bling costs between $3000-$10000 and takes a month. Almost worth it to drive it down and have them do it.

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TNZbwG4dQ1KEsCx9rqEQAw.jpg

kNpBBS6uQ+Sdtii%F3e8Pw.jpg

Fa0NX4svQ%K9yEktLhNpYg.jpg
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