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Old 07-18-2019, 04:59 PM   #61
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:47 PM   #62
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:12 PM   #63
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:29 PM   #64
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Wow! Someone with the same idea about the roof cap. Why haven't we seen a build like this yet I wonder? Mine will have the wood deck above the cap so as to have the benefit of hiding the possible poor looks of the cap. It should all work well together I think and I can't wait to get to that stage in the build. Should be way easier to apply the foam externally then internally I'd think but stay tuned!





That wood deck is going to change the center of gravity. I would also check out how its going to affect my insurance, I've read that some insurance companies cancel........???




When you get around to the foam, check out urethane roofing contractors. That's what they do and they can also "cap"/coat/paint it for you.
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:46 PM   #65
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That wood deck is going to change the center of gravity. I would also check out how its going to affect my insurance, I've read that some insurance companies cancel........???
in effect it would be equivalent to a 4 INCH roof raise - peruse the builds here on the forum - some have gone to an 18" - 24" roof raise and it wouldn't surprise me if they put solar panels and/or a deck on top of that - haven't heard any stories of roll overs or heard anyone complaining that their bus felt top heavy - we are dealing with 26,000 GVWR +/- vehicles - 10 sheets of 5/8" plywood is not going to affect them in the least - with that 4" raise, I can get an R21 rating from closed cell spray foam without harming the integrity of the roof structure and a roof that will never ever leak again - the whole structure, plywood, trusses, insulation and rubber filament roofing would weigh little more than 1500 lbs
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:29 PM   #66
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My deck will be 2x6x8' cedar decking over the entire 40 feet with vertical T&G 5/8" cedar short pieces around the parameter to enclose the spray-foam with some sort of membrane (yet to be determined). I haven't seen a deck enclosed before but I think it's doable. My rails will fold down when not in use. I'd love to find a good auto-painter who'd shoot the bus for me as I'm hoping for a high quality paint job.

I understand the insurance deli-ma with decks but sadly, I'll just insure it prior to the deck addition like others do and sue them if they deny a claim for a fender bender unrelated to the deck.

So full disclosure here with my bus's purpose. I've been living with an older disabled brother who has been fighting cancer and most likely will lose in the next year or so. I gave up my home in another state to do so and
after his passing I'll be moving into the bus full time as it's better than the old mobile home he's in now and I'm a single guy with two dogs.

I'll be parking the bus on the lake shore in Oklahoma 90% of the time and I turn 62 in a couple of years so then I may travel a bit. Meanwhile I might list my bus on AIRBNB which is a goldmine for Skoolie's to be rented. Oklahoma is a funny state where you can title a vehicle but not register it if you don't want to drive it, so I'll only insure it when I'm ready to hit the road. I'm told the don't insure contents or the build itself, just liability. The maximum fine for late titling and registration is only $100 no matter how many years you wait. Pretty cool!



Your insurance plan sounds contradictory and will not work.


"I understand the insurance deli-ma with decks but sadly, I'll just insure it prior to the deck addition like others do and sue them if they deny a claim for a fender bender unrelated to the deck."............" I'll only insure it when I'm ready to hit the road." So you gonna wait until your mid sixties to get insurance, then deck the bus. Doesn't sound like a fast build to me.


Problem: you have already admitted to the world here of your plan to misinform the insurance company. If you have an accident, I'm pretty sure the insurance co will tell you to kiss off. Even if they don't find out about your post, I'm pretty sure that they will notice the deck and tell you that your modification was not within the guidelines of their policy and too bad, so sad. If you sue, pretty sure you will lose. After all, their investigators job is to find a reason not to pay. Why would they have pay? They don't have prove that the top heavy deck contributed to the crash. You would be stuck tying to prove that it didn't contribute. Your only hope would be if you are not at fault and the other guys insurance pays. Is a deck that important?



Also sounds contradictory to your OP about unnecessary, costly, time consuming stuff.



BTW, if you keep replying to defend you assertions, how are you going to get this build done as fast as you think? Do we have to go to your website to see progress?
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:50 PM   #67
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in effect it would be equivalent to a 4 INCH roof raise - peruse the builds here on the forum - some have gone to an 18" - 24" roof raise and it wouldn't surprise me if they put solar panels and/or a deck on top of that - haven't heard any stories of roll overs or heard anyone complaining that their bus felt top heavy - we are dealing with 26,000 GVWR +/- vehicles - 10 sheets of 5/8" plywood is not going to affect them in the least - with that 4" raise, I can get an R21 rating from closed cell spray foam without harming the integrity of the roof structure and a roof that will never ever leak again - the whole structure, plywood, trusses, insulation and rubber filament roofing would weigh little more than 1500 lbs

So... why/how would you hear about any accidents that occurred? Especially if the schoolie occupants died.


And did I get this right? You don't think that an extra 1500 pounds at the end of a 8-10 foot lever (above cg) is going to have any effect in a turn or throw more weight on the front end during a stop.



"in effect it would be equivalent to a 4 INCH roof raise"....I disagree. How many roof raises add an extra 1500 lbs. right there at the very top of the raise? Most I have seen don't add any extra weight, unless, maybe, it is a few hundred lbs., tops, for solar or a rooftop a/c unit.


I could see it if the buss is mostly parked or driven seldom and slowly for short distances, but not for freeway speeds touring the country. An all aluminum, light weight structure sounds more safe. Easily removable/assembled light weight structures stored under or inside the bus could be an option (expensive). I also think that if you have a deck up there that, eventually, it is going to be used for more storage (more weight) no matter what your initial intentions.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:35 AM   #68
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So... why/how would you hear about any accidents that occurred? Especially if the schoolie occupants died.


And did I get this right? You don't think that an extra 1500 pounds at the end of a 8-10 foot lever (above cg) is going to have any effect in a turn or throw more weight on the front end during a stop.



"in effect it would be equivalent to a 4 INCH roof raise"....I disagree. How many roof raises add an extra 1500 lbs. right there at the very top of the raise? Most I have seen don't add any extra weight, unless, maybe, it is a few hundred lbs., tops, for solar or a rooftop a/c unit.


I could see it if the buss is mostly parked or driven seldom and slowly for short distances, but not for freeway speeds touring the country. An all aluminum, light weight structure sounds more safe. Easily removable/assembled light weight structures stored under or inside the bus could be an option (expensive). I also think that if you have a deck up there that, eventually, it is going to be used for more storage (more weight) no matter what your initial intentions.
we're not talking a Volkswagen bus here - holding tanks and storage under the bus would would likely more than counterbalance such a minuscule change to the roof - it would certainly have less effect on handling than a simple 2' roof raise in the corners - raising a roof 2' sends all the weight of the roof two feet higher, plus the weight of the insulation, plus all the added storage space that would certainly be installed in a raise like that - I'll stick with my 4" raise and I'd be willing to bet that I'll never be able to tell the difference in handling at legal highway speeds
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Old 07-19-2019, 03:45 PM   #69
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we're not talking a Volkswagen bus here - holding tanks and storage under the bus would would likely more than counterbalance such a minuscule change to the roof - it would certainly have less effect on handling than a simple 2' roof raise in the corners - raising a roof 2' sends all the weight of the roof two feet higher, plus the weight of the insulation, plus all the added storage space that would certainly be installed in a raise like that - I'll stick with my 4" raise and I'd be willing to bet that I'll never be able to tell the difference in handling at legal highway speeds

I notice that you did not answer any of my 3 questions, but i instead chose to call 5% of the bus GVW added to the top of the roof "a minuscule change to the roof". OK..

Comparing apples to oranges is not very convincing. I'm not sure that a 2 foot raise is the norm but I would agree that big raises are not good for handling, the weight added is pretty minimal and distributed lower down, however the wind resistance is considerable, especially from the side.

A 2 foot raise on a 40 foot long bus is like adding an 80 sq ft sail to the top of the bus. It's also a 25-33% increase in design height depending on the bus and how/where you measure. I would be afraid to drive it at freeway speeds, especially over bridges. Big trucks passing in either direction would make me too nervous to enjoy the drive. But it would give me a good excuse to slow down and take the path less traveled. Also have to plan to avoid low bridges, tunnels, gas stations, and trees. Note that the 2 foot sail is working 24/7 whether driving or parked. Single wide mobile homes blow over all the time unless they are tied down and they are usually heavier and not as tall.

I'm not an engineer, but, I looked it up (searched for "wind pressure formula") and 9 pounds per sq ft @ 60mph wind seems to be a usable number for conversation purposes. Assuming an original height to the floor of 6 ft, I think we could say we have 9 lbs x 80 sq ft =720. On a 7 ft lever 7 x 720 = 5040 ( used 7 ft because the height varies between 6 ft & 8 ft and I don't have the math skills necessary to figure that). That's over 5,000 extra pounds, @ 60mph wind gust, suddenly applied to the top to try and turn over the bus. Maybe 5 times more wind pressure trying to push you sideways (you have to figure the whole height, not just the added 2 ft). Better be ready for it.

The rest of the side height is also trying to turn over the bus while the weight and wind side pressure under the floor/chassis height is trying to prevent it but supposedly that has all been designed for............I'm just rambling, I have no idea what I an trying to talk about. Any engineers out there, please feel free to chime in and educate us to the realities.

Trying to compare the rack example to the 2 ft raise, the only thing that I see in common is the extra force trying to turn it over side ways. So....1500 lbs x the 6 ft lever = 9000 lbs trying to push it over compared to 5040 lbs wind pressure. That's provided that there is no extra cargo on the rack to account for. What am I missing? Lots, I'm sure. I don't see/know how to compare the racks weight putting an extra load on the front suspension and brakes when stopping. That just seems like an extra negative to me.

" raising a roof 2' sends all the weight of the roof two feet higher,"..... that is a good point, higher (longer lever) but it is not much heavier. However, I don't know how to account for that, but it would appear that it would have to almost double the roof raise forces in our example to come close to the racks forces. People storing stuff in high cabinets inside the roof raise would raise the high weight, but how much?

Takeaway..Seems to me that if you just gotta have a rack, make it as light as practical. Same for interior high cabs and contents in a roof raise. Weight is your enemy here.

"holding tanks and storage under the bus would would likely more than counterbalance".... that and the rest of the bus applies to both cases and the bus with out racks or roof raises. But, what ever the load is under the bus the lever length is going to be much less than the top lever length of 6 ft and the top weight will become increasingly more important as the bus starts leaning due to spring compression on the side being forced to take the load because gravity will now assist the wind pressure/weight, whichever the case. At this point you can "likely" just say goodbye to your bus. Centrifugal forces/high winds and high center of gravity have done in a lot of big trucks which goes to prove that they are a lot easier to turn over than you may think.

"I'd be willing to bet that I'll never be able to tell the difference in handling at legal highway speeds"....I have no problem with that as long as your like is the only one that you are betting.

That being said if you can get the insurance go for it. You are the one that has to drive it and be responsible for it, not me. All I can do is cross my fingers, hope I see you coming, and keep my eyes on you, hope for the best, and try to stay alive, which is normal for me anyway.

BTW, I have 2 VW buses, currently in-op. Whats wrong with VW buses?..or should I ask whats not wrong with VW buses?

Just thinking out loud because I'm considering these mods, but don't want to be stupid about it. The numbers don't work for me because I have a 30 ft bus and considering a 1 ft raise, 30,000 GVW
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:07 PM   #70
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I notice that you did not answer any of my 3 questions, but i instead chose to call 5% of the bus GVW added to the top of the roof "a minuscule change to the roof". OK..


Comparing apples to oranges is not very convincing. I'm not sure that a 2 foot raise is the norm but I would agree that big raises are not good for handling, the weight added is pretty minimal and distributed lower down, however the wind resistance is considerable, especially from the side.


A 2 foot raise on a 40 foot long bus is like adding an 80 sq ft sail to the top of the bus. It's also a 25-33% increase in design height depending on the bus and how/where you measure. I would be afraid to drive it at freeway speeds, especially over bridges. Big trucks passing in either direction would make me too nervous to enjoy the drive. But it would give me a good excuse to take the path less traveled. Note that the 2 foot sail is working 24/7 whether driving or parked. Single wide mobile homes blow over all the time unless they are tied down and they are usually heavier and not as tall.


I'm not an engineer, but, I looked it up (search for "wind pressure formula") and 9 pounds per sq ft @ 60mph wind seems to be a usable number for conversation purposes. Assuming an original height to the floor of 6 ft, I think we could say we have 9 lbs x 80 sq ft =720. On a 6 ft lever 6 x 720 = 4230. That's over 4,000 extra pounds, @ 60mph wind gust, suddenly applied to the top to try and turn over the bus. Maybe 5 times more wind pressure trying to push you sideways (you have to figure the whole height, not just the added 2 ft). Better be ready for it.


The rest of the side height is also trying to turn over the bus while the weight and wind side pressure under the floor/chassis height is trying to prevent it but supposedly that has all been designed for............I'm just rambling, I have no idea what I an trying to talk about. Any engineers out there, please feel free to chime in and educate us to the realities.


Trying to compare the rack example to the 2 ft raise, the only thing that I see in common is the extra force trying to turn it over side ways. So....1500 lbs x the 6 ft lever = 9000 lbs trying to push it over compared to 4320 lbs wind pressure. That's provided that there is no extra cargo on the rack to account for. What am I missing? I don't see/know how to compare the racks weight putting an extra load on the front suspension and brakes when stopping. That just seems like an extra negative to me.

"holding tanks and storage under the bus would would likely more than counterbalance".... that and the rest of the bus applies to both cases and the bus with out racks or roof raises. But, what ever the load is under the bus the lever length is going to be much less than the top lever length of 6 ft and the top weight will become increasingly more important as the bus starts leaning due to spring compression on the side being forced to take the load because gravity will now assist the wind pressure/weight, whichever the case. At this point you can "likely" just say goodbye to your bus. Centrifugal forces/high winds and high center of gravity have done in a lot of big trucks which goes to prove that they are a lot easier to turn over than you may think.

That being said if you can get the insurance go for it. You are the one that has to drive it and be responsible for it, not me. All I can do is cross my fingers, hope I see you coming, and keep my eyes on you, hope for the best, and try to stay alive, which is normal for me anyway.


BTW, I have 2 VW buses, currently in-op. Whats wrong with VW buses?
lol - I'm no fan of volkswagen buses since they came out in the 50's or when ever it was - a saying I heard that stuck with me was, 'at the head of every long line of traffic going up a hill on Sunday afternoon, there is a volkswagen van' lol - when I talk about an under powered school bus, I say I want something that doesn't hold a volkswagen van up on the hills - I liked the beetle, but the vollkwagen van didn't have any 'Better Ideas' back then - I'm not worried about side wind on a 4" raise - I've driven cube vans that were higher and weighed less than a bus and had no problems in some very severe side winds - I see little difference between raising a roof 4" and insulating from under it, than insulating above the roof, and saving the integrity of the bus's built in strength - I think we are being foolish to nit pick about a 4" raise or the weight of a deck 4' above the regular roof - it wouldn't surprise me if the inspector didn't even notice the 4" raise the way I'm designing it
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:13 PM   #71
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lol - I'm no fan of volkswagen buses since they came out in the 50's or when ever it was - a saying I heard that stuck with me was, 'at the head of every long line of traffic going up a hill on Sunday afternoon, there is a volkswagen van' lol - when I talk about an under powered school bus, I say I want something that doesn't hold a volkswagen van up on the hills - I liked the beetle, but the vollkwagen van didn't have any 'Better Ideas' back then - I'm not worried about side wind on a 4" raise - I've driven cube vans that were higher and weighed less than a bus and had no problems in some very severe side winds - I see little difference between raising a roof 4" and insulating from under it, than insulating above the roof, and saving the integrity of the bus's built in strength - I think we are being foolish to nit pick about a 4" raise or the weight of a deck 4' above the regular roof - it wouldn't surprise me if the inspector didn't even notice the 4" raise the way I'm designing it
Apparantly VW thinks there is more interest in the Vans than the Beetle made in Mexico. Beetle is discontinued and a new van has replaced it.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:19 PM   #72
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Beetle is discontinued

Most 'tarded move eva.


They should bring the baja back.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:24 PM   #73
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While starting a flame war with me, Svengali, on the subject of the Westphalia camper microbus!!!
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:26 PM   #74
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Most 'tarded move eva.


They should bring the baja back.
They are gearing more to SUV market. Smart business decision.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:36 PM   #75
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They are gearing more to SUV market. Smart business decision.

I should have said "Best move eva". Then you'd have said they should bring the baja back.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:54 PM   #76
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Apparantly VW thinks there is more interest in the Vans than the Beetle made in Mexico. Beetle is discontinued and a new van has replaced it.
That's as much as Van as that nissan cube thingy. or that scion xb.
But they'll sell.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:57 PM   #77
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Apparantly VW thinks there is more interest in the Vans than the Beetle made in Mexico. Beetle is discontinued and a new van has replaced it.
as you may have gathered, I'm no fan of the old VW van, but it certainly still has it's followers - I can't for the life of me understand why a 60's - 70's VW van, in pieces, with parts missing, has asking prices for more than we can buy a REAL bus - - I see the VW van has joined the horsepower race now with their proposed electric van - I wonder how that will go over with the old crowd that seemed almost proud that their little van was so badly under powered?

https://electrek.co/2019/05/09/vw-el...icrobus-video/
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:01 PM   #78
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as you may have gathered, I'm no fan of the old VW van, but it certainly still has it's followers - I can't for the life of me understand why a 60's - 70's VW van, in pieces, with parts missing, has asking prices for more than we can buy a REAL bus - - I see the VW van has joined the horsepower race now with their proposed electric van - I wonder how that will go over with the old crowd that seemed almost proud that their little van was so badly under powered?

https://electrek.co/2019/05/09/vw-el...icrobus-video/
VW purists and enthusiasts often don't care about newer stuff at all.
Sure there's a watercooled section at VW shows but its totally secondary. Just to be inclusive.
The real show is the vintage stuff. Splits, ovals, and any type 2.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:23 PM   #79
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:26 PM   #80
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Where's that guy? that was fishing for info on Crown bus conversion to electric a month or so ago?
The VW van conversion would be so much easier and practical...
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