Fastest, Cheapest, best quality bus build if your in the right location!

[HazMatt]

I maintain what I opined back on #9: it's an alternative approach for those that don't have the time, finances, &/or patience to expend on a multiple years' transmogrification of a sow's ear into a silk purse.
I found the OP's approach to be a refreshing change of pace from the oft times tediously droning lists of accomplishments that comprise some build threads' documentation. STFU, and go enjoy the damned thing already!
In between those two extremes must lay a happy medium. As has been said by many before: each build is unique to the individual, representative to their unique history and expectations.
And while there are better ways and worse ways to safely arrive at one's destination, it's the journey itself that is paramount. Planning for the future IS important, however one must appreciate every day spent getting there as a gift.
That's why it's called the Present...

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I see your point.

Another consideration is making an effort to protect newbies from bad advice. I think it is fine to have opposing opinions expressed.

I am minimalistic by nature, a conservationist by training, frugal by circumstances, and a procratinator by astrology. Offering hard won reccommendations to Noobs is one thing.
If they're too lazy or too mentally deficient to find their own answers, then holding their hands is, A) Enabling, & B) A waste of your time.
It is contingent on the reader, be it an old hand or a Noob, to research deeply, and then weigh and balance what has been offered for their consideration before acting on it. Anyone who blindly follows the suggestions of others shouldn't be allowed to possess a driver's license.
Or be permitted to cross the street un-shepherded...

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

I am of the mindset that there is no wrong way to build a Skoolie, but the most important thing is doing so while making educated decisions. ....................
I spray foamed the walls and now 6 months later it's rusted out) ...

I think that the reason most of us are here is because we want to build it their own way.

As far as "no wrong way" I am going to have to disagree. I will continue to gently discourage the folks who want to put an 800 gallon water tank on their roof or raise the roof using 2x4's. Electrical is another area that NEEDS to be done right. I have observed some really scary electrical advice offered on some of the forums.

I've had a bit of experience with 2 part, closed cell polyurethane spray foam insulation. Sprayed my first bus in 1995. I have seen MANY buses similarly insulated and have never seen a rust issue. Now single part foam like "Great Stuff" is another story. I have seen instances where it failed to cure and trapped moisture.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

Well..... There is the weekly link to Insulation4less......

Brings P. T. Barnum to mind.

Recommending a link we should believe that has been proven to be selling a gimmick. I rarely listen to bad advice about a product from someone trying to sell me their product.

[M1031A1]

It's also advice with the caveat of the intentions for the build. The way in which the advice is given, it appears to me this build is only for a weekend warrior. That's how it strikes me. Others may vary.

As far as I'm concerned, I did not gain anything other than a rush job is not the best way to go about this. The errors in rushing are too numerous to explain here. There are many solid reasons why taking time to plan ahead five, ten, and more years down the road for those wanting to spend less money and more time enjoying their build.

My experience in building our first skoolie taught me the value of taking the time to properly plan for the potentially unknown future. As my wife's health has slowly gotten worse, the initial plans of a few years ago have radically changed. It a great thing that we took our time, otherwise we would not be nearly as well prepared as we are now for her changing needs.

The spray-foam issue:

We have first hand experience with spray foam in our bus. We made some rookie errors, but will definitely finish the spray foam. The difference between the article posted and actual real-world experience is proper preparation and understanding how spray foam really works. Closed cell foam has different properties compared to open cell. Open cell will retain water, no question about it. Closed cell will NOT retain water, even when submerged in it. Thusly, we prepare the metal surfaces with primer, paint, and other preparation, and spray foam is the final layer applied. No need to worry about rust issues. Is it a long process? It can be depending upon a bunch of factors. Is it worth it in the end? YOU BET IT IS!!!!!! Without A/C our bus interior is at least 20* cooler than outside. When we had to remove two ceiling panels to re-spray due to a poor mix, our interior temps. went through the roof (LOVE intended puns!). Contrary to the OP's observation, our R-value with spray foam is an R-10/12 without the thermal break (coming soon). The cheap fiberglass (YUCK) was at best an R-2/4. The interior before spray foam was always within a degree or two of exterior temps. The insulation used by the factory is ALWAYS the cheapest available. It's intended to keep enough heat in the bus while in operation to defrost the windshield and keep passengers just above the "miserable experience" level in adverse conditions. Same with A/C. When spray foam is used the efficiency of the heating and A/C systems increases dramatically. So the question boils down to the intention of the build - weekend warrior (i.e. who cares about insulation?) or full-time home (you bet we care about insulation!). For those of us going full-time (like us) a full-gut is a required step to stay and keep comfortable no matter what is going on outside. For a party bus/hunting bus/fishing bus/vacation bus, the insulation factor is not as important. One other very important note about fiberglass - it DOES retain water AND mold!!!! If there are any concerns about health issues and mold GET RID OF THAT CHEAP TOXIC FIBERGLASS!!!!!!!! Fiberglass should NEVER be handled without respirators, due to the fine shards getting airborne and into lung tissue. It needs to be handled like the hazardous material it is. In addition, fiberglass retains water, causing not only rust issues, but mold issues. Due to all the health issues I would ALWAYS remove, and encourage others to do the same, fiberglass insulation as the step immediately after removing the seats. Removing flooring is also a great idea to find out about rust issues/holes in the steel floor. It's worth the time to see what hidden issues may come back to bite you in the backside if you don't address the flooring issue promptly. Always easier to repair floor problems before building than to have a nasty, ugly surprise after the build when demo will take out that quickie build.

M

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I think that the reason most of us are here is because we want to build it their own way.

As far as "no wrong way" I am going to have to disagree. I will continue to gently discourage the folks who want to put an 800 gallon water tank on their roof or raise the roof using 2x4's. Electrical is another area that NEEDS to be done right. I have observed some really scary electrical advice offered on some of the forums.

I've had a bit of experience with 2 part, closed cell polyurethane spray foam insulation. Sprayed my first bus in 1995. I have seen MANY buses similarly insulated and have never seen a rust issue. Now single part foam like "Great Stuff" is another story. I have seen instances where it failed to cure and trapped moisture.

I'll agree with you on safety related items, and yes, the single-part foam was what I was referencing. But when it comes to "do I absolutely have to [whatever]?", not so much. Sure, for example, electrical should all be done up to code but how much electrical is needed? Some of us have rather elaborate electrical systems where someone else may have an El Cheapo inverter and 20-watt solar trickle charger - and both systems will suffice *FOR THE INTENDED USAGE*. How much plumbing does each bus require? Some may want huge water reserves, grey and black tanks, where someone else may find a 24-pack of bottled water to be sufficient.


And my above examples are where this forum comes into play. It allows folks to pose their proposed plans for review and critique and allow others to make their suggestions, based on our combined knowledge and experience, for them to make educated decisions. There are plenty of "Here's what I did, what went right, what went wrong, what I would do differently, what I would do again" threads, excellent material for those wanting to follow a similar path or simply learn in order to formulate their own plans.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by M1031A1

It's also advice with the caveat of the intentions for the build. The way in which the advice is given, it appears to me this build is only for a weekend warrior. That's how it strikes me. Others may vary.

He stated this build was for full time living, good luck to him.

[NoRushBus]

Brad you are the voice of reason on this site. Not that I need help in defending my advice but I hope others follow your comments as true and trustworthy.

Notice NO one accepts my challenge of proving the cost savings they make up as they go. You can't save half the cost of a heating bill by doubling your R-factor! It doesn't work that way. But yet, that seems to be the regurgitated theme when it comes to insulating. How many buses are on YouTube with the damn spray foam "still" not covered! It's a pain in the *** to deal with but hey, each to their own.

I want people to enjoy their builds ASAP! Some of these couples teeter on divorce going through the tough tasks of tearing out perfectly good metal roofs only to spend weeks and hundreds of dollars to say they "did it right". Here is a important fact.......MOLD DOES NOT GO THROUGH METAL! Uneducated people believe this but that doesn't make it true! Also, RUST DOES NOT SPREAD! IT's IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT WATER! Read about it! If you eliminate moisture, you eliminate rust! Grinding out rust is a waste of time and effort. Eliminate the moisture and leave the rust alone. Just do the homework and you'll see that I'm right. Cover the darn stuff and move on.

My buses roof will have a R-Factor of over 25 before I'm done. An insulating "CAP" will cover the exterior of it and a wooden deck will block ALL sunlight. Insulation can go inside or outside, makes no difference. My future pictures and videos will explain and hopefully some people will head the advice.

Some pretty sensitive people on here huh?

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

Well..... There is the weekly link to Insulation4less......

Brings P. T. Barnum to mind.

Good lord folks love a good scam don't they!
Did the forum turn into a tiny house facebook page this morning?

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I see your point.

Another consideration is making an effort to protect newbies from bad advice. I think it is fine to have opposing opinions expressed.

protecting newbs while not coddling them!

[M1031A1]

Originally Posted by NoRushBus

MOLD DOES NOT GO THROUGH METAL! Uneducated people believe this but that doesn't make it true! Also, RUST DOES NOT SPREAD! IT's IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT WATER!

Some pretty sensitive people on here huh?

NRB;

Spot on. IF you're living in the desert Southwest, or a relatively low humidity climate I 100% agree.

However, most builds are not in those ideal climates. Humidity permeates where builders least expect it. In addition, if the ceiling has the tiny ventilation holes, the situation becomes worse. Open cell foam soaks up humidity like a sponge, same for fiberglass.

Here's the proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfFH...tkO5q&index=13

At 14:41 there is a discussion about open cell spray foam and winterization in Alaska (that gets less precipitation than Maine for the most part depending upon local conditions).

So, taking this truck to a more desert-like climate will not stop the oxidation. The water is already in the open cell foam. How can I tell it's open cell? Closed cell foam looks and performs differently. Fiberglass will have the same results as open cell foam.

Having lived my teen years in northern Maine, rust is a given, along with mold, no matter what you do unless proper precautions are taken.

I'm getting mentally prepared to fly to Maine next week knowing the air there is dang near impossible for me to breathe at nearly 100% humidity 90% of the time, not to mention the salt content in the air.

Is there a possibility my wife and I will visit Maine in the future? Yup, counting on it for no less than settling family estates there when the time comes, maybe for brief visits as well. Does this mean we should skimp on proper preparation for the bus? Nope, all the more reason to be prepared.

Not everyone is going to have to face these hostile environments. Some may be content with a short-term bus and build something else later on. More power to them and their deep pockets. However, I'm too poor to build a third time.

Based upon this premise, coupled with a unique needs-based build, we decided to take it slow on our second build because we found doing a rush job on the first build backfired big time.

Will we enjoy our build? You bet! Will we be taking more than six months to finish? I'm certain. As we encounter new questions, usually relating to my wife's health, we must adjust the build to accommodate our new answers.

Slow and steady wins the race.

M

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Got half way through and quite reading after all the bad advice. You are describing the sign in my shop. "We offer the following A-Quick Service
B-Quality Work
C-Cheap Prices
You can have 2 of the above.

Your job will be quicker because you are forfitting some of the most important steps to building a livable Skoolie. I see you're set in your plan so I won't even explain how wrong you are.
What is your ETA for completion.
Your recommendations to noobs will surely heighten their stress level up the road. I'll take crap for it, but this is a good example how not to build a Skoolie that is livable.

Seconded. His website seems to be basically an ad for his handyman services - and his skoolie advice seems to be basically justifications for all of the shortcuts someone has to take (e.g. not removing the ceiling, not using sprayfoam) to build skoolies for others profitably.

Also, THE USE OF ALL CAPS DOES NOT MAKE A PERSON'S ARGUMENTS ANY MORE EFFECTIVE.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by NoRushBus

Brad you are the voice of reason on this site. Not that I need help in defending my advice but I hope others follow your comments as true and trustworthy.

Notice NO one accepts my challenge of proving the cost savings they make up as they go. You can't save half the cost of a heating bill by doubling your R-factor! It doesn't work that way. But yet, that seems to be the regurgitated theme when it comes to insulating. How many buses are on YouTube with the damn spray foam "still" not covered! It's a pain in the *** to deal with but hey, each to their own.

I want people to enjoy their builds ASAP! Some of these couples teeter on divorce going through the tough tasks of tearing out perfectly good metal roofs only to spend weeks and hundreds of dollars to say they "did it right". Here is a important fact.......MOLD DOES NOT GO THROUGH METAL! Uneducated people believe this but that doesn't make it true! Also, RUST DOES NOT SPREAD! IT's IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT WATER! Read about it! If you eliminate moisture, you eliminate rust! Grinding out rust is a waste of time and effort. Eliminate the moisture and leave the rust alone. Just do the homework and you'll see that I'm right. Cover the darn stuff and move on.

My buses roof will have a R-Factor of over 25 before I'm done. An insulating "CAP" will cover the exterior of it and a wooden deck will block ALL sunlight. Insulation can go inside or outside, makes no difference. My future pictures and videos will explain and hopefully some people will head the advice.

Some pretty sensitive people on here huh?

You probably have something ready to go for this, but you've heard of thermal conductivity? R-factor is not the only thing to consider in insulation.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Seconded. His website seems to be basically an ad for his handyman services - and his skoolie advice seems to be basically justifications for all of the shortcuts someone has to take (e.g. not removing the ceiling, not using sprayfoam) to build skoolies for others profitably.

Also, THE USE OF ALL CAPS DOES NOT MAKE A PERSON'S ARGUMENTS ANY MORE EFFECTIVE.

Dang, man you're like... really good with words and stuff man.

[NoRushBus]

Duh? My website is an ad for my business....but for a 50 mile radius. That's what websites are for, to build business. Do you think I'm trying to do handyman business across the USA? Too funny. Seriously? You think that's my motive?

Again so far no one can prove my claims wrong. This is a good thing for new builders and by far more will be helped than hurt. Facts are a stubborn thing.

Insulation is the most argued aspect of bus conversions. It's also the most misunderstood. Everyone comments on it but no one substantiates their claim. The windows are the true culprits here. The cold air cascades down the walls and onto the floor negating the floors insulation. Look how many YouTube videos show people with "rugs" on their floors. It's just the way things are. Relax and enjoy it. A rug is a cheap investment.

[M1031A1]

Originally Posted by NoRushBus

Facts are a stubborn thing.

Insulation is the most argued aspect of bus conversions. It's also the most misunderstood. (1)Everyone comments on it but no one substantiates their claim. (2)The windows are the true culprits here. (3)The cold air cascades down the walls and onto the floor negating the floors insulation. (4)Look how many YouTube videos show people with "rugs" on their floors. It's just the way things are. Relax and enjoy it. A rug is a cheap investment.

(1) I guess he didn't read my post on page 3......

(2) Single pane, I'll agree with part of that, but it's more than just windows. (see post on page 3...)

(3) What in the world is this guy talking about? A water fall? A/C is more thermodynamic than this. How do you "negate" insulation? You can break the laws of man all day long, but try as anyone may, no one can break the laws of physics. The only way someone can "negate" insulation is to destroy or remove it. This statement makes absolutely no sense.

(4) I have seen maybe two or three of the multitudes of buses with carpeted floors. I made the colossal error of doing that in my first build to see if it works, NOT!!! Rugs are not indicative of a lack of insulation. Rugs are put on floors to help cope with dust and cleaning issues (helps prevent scratches - extends floor life). Rugs lack any kind of effective insulation.

Well, if people don't read previous posts and make intelligent responses, I'm done with this thread. Gave my two cents worth of real world results and common sense then was ignored.

I figure you can lead a horse to water, can't make 'em drink....

Yep, facts are a stubborn thing alright. It's the sources relied upon that's the question. I tend to trust real world experiences above all else.

M

[NoRushBus]

M,

I read your post on page 3 but it made no sense then either so I didn't comment. And to comment on this post now seems unfair to you because you don't no the definition of "Negate" and it's use in my example. I won't bother to explain it again.....as you said, you can lead a horse to water, blah, blah, blah.

Give us a break. And somehow your offended by my not replying and you are going to take your ball and glove and go home? Ok.

[peteg59]

This thread has gone from someone offering their buildout advise, into what has seemingly turned into a pi$$ing contest which is a real shame.

Naturally we're not all going to have 100% agreement on how a quality bus should be converted. or how much insulation is needed vs what will simply work most of the time depending on the vehicle's intended usage.

Having different ideas or choices in the buildout process is helpful to contemplate and should be embraced by those open minded folks that are serious about wanting suggestions to follow, or not, in getting their individual projects across the finish line!

There will likely be very few busses still running the roads 20 years from now, that are on the road today no matter how over or under built they are...

[HazMatt]

Yeah verily, and amen.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by peteg59

This thread has gone from someone offering their buildout advise, into what has seemingly turned into a pi$$ing contest which is a real shame.

Naturally we're not all going to have 100% agreement on how a quality bus should be converted. or how much insulation is needed vs what will simply work most of the time depending on the vehicle's intended usage.

Having different ideas or choices in the buildout process is helpful to contemplate and should be embraced by those open minded folks that are serious about wanting suggestions to follow, or not, in getting their individual projects across the finish line!

There will likely be very few busses still running the roads 20 years from now, that are on the road today no matter how over or under built they are...

I agree - the OP has some ideas that will work fine for some, maybe not so fine for some others - I long ago decided that I wanted closed cell foam insulation, but it's going on top of the roof - the steel roof will work fine as a vapor barrier, and it's a simple matter to build a water proof cap/deck on top - that in itself will save time and $'s and will perform as well or better than alternatives ( and has the added, but likely uneeded, advantage of enhancing the skoolie's safety in a roll over rather than detract from ceiling strength like the removal of the metal ceiling does ) - the OP's post about getting furniture and cabinets from returns or auctions would be an excellent one for my purpose, just wish it was a more practical solution for me because I live in an area of low population and auctions/warehouses tend to stick to the high population areas - I see no cause for rudeness when someone has an idea different than our own - this forum, as far as I understood is for the exchange of ideas, not for insults and sour posts because someone disagrees - for Pete's sake, it's not our manhood being challenged - lol

[Mark_In_MA]

There are many different ways to build a skoolie - tons of people on here for different reasons, with different goals, skill levels, and budgets. There's no one way to do things. Like a lot of things though, I'm immedeately suspicious when someone comes in to say do this, that, and the other thing - exactly the opposite of what a lot of the general community does - without being able to explain why. There are a lot of opinionated people here - but I think most people and and keep the "preachyness" to their own threads - what I mean is that people say "On my bus I'm doing __________" , instead of trying to say that "EVERYONE should do ________."

"Fastest". . oakay, "cheapest", oaky, "Best quality bus build". . uhh, hang on a sec...
It's fine to do a budget bus build. There might be a literal build called that here somewhere. But if you call it "Fastest, cheapest, best", then you can't complain if people call you out on it.

Not everyone's bus needs to be a mobile hotel on wheels - some people are fine with a metal tent on wheels. It's not that the OP's advice is false, but I feel like there are a lot of things that could get people in trouble.

For example, forget about insulation for a moment - think about "temperature management" instead. It's totally faster and easier if, like the OP suggests, you just put up some 2x4 walls on 24 inch centers, and put some foam between the studs. If you do that though, you're closing off all your windows. . . and forget what you have for insulation, if you don't get some fresh air your bus somewhere, you've just built yourself an oven. Rugs work in the cold, they don't help as much in the hot. Do you need to rip apart all the walls and the ceiling? No. Will you be in trouble if you don't check for leaks (either on a rainy day or with a hose first)? YES. How many of you have leaking emergency hatches?

Another reason to remove the interior walls and ceiling is to make room for your plumbing and wiring before you put up your walls. Some of those things you really want to run first. Raise your hand if you floor plan has changed at some point in the build - that will effect your utilities as well. Go ahead and frame - just do the leg work to get somewhat of an idea of your floor plan first.

I think the OP missed a bit of a point about tons of people on Youtube who are asking $25,000 for their build and can't find a buyer - the problem isn't exactly that people did a poor looking job on the conversion, or that there are no buyers - but that they cut certain corners - like spending the extra thousand or two to put in some insulation in the first place - which turns away knowledgeable buyers.

It also ignores the fact that you're still starting a conversion based on a large, used, commercial-spec vehicle. Not that you have to be an expert mechanic, but you're going to learn about certain things sooner or later - like fuel filters, air tank drain valves, etc. What's worse then finding out you have roof leak (and ruined $100 of tongue and groove roofing) is finding out your bus just toasted a piston and needs $1200 of engine work.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that there are things you can do to make building a skoolie easyER - but it's still not easy. There are certain things you need to be prepared to buy/spend/do, or maybe a skoolie isn't the right type of camper for you.