Joining the Club

[Native]

Originally Posted by ted@campbycanoe.com

I ended up using FDC Rust Converter Ultra. But when I started drilling rivet holes for patches I noticed a rust colored dust. So I ground down a section to see underneath.

The top looks black like it's supposed to, but there's definitely rust colored stuff underneath.

My understanding is that rust converters convert iron oxide to iron phosphate or iron tannate, or some other inert metal. Is this rust color indicative of the rust converter not getting deep enough? Should I grind down to almost metal and put on another coat?

The bottom picture sure looks like it is still rusty to me. I (currently) have only used Ospho (phophoric acid) to convert the rust. Sometimes it takes several "soakings" with a full dry-out between. It even states as much on the bottle. I can not say about the FDC Rust Converter Ultra priduct.


Note: If you remove more of the rust with the grinder, you'll have less rust to convert.

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

I think you're right, Native...I'm continuing to grind!

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

I agree with Musigenesis...it's getting a but cold to paint / epoxy / caulk!

I did manage to get the floor patched and painted, but had to look to other projects before I get started on the windows. Supposed to be in the teens tonight.

Guess I'll start pulling the unnecessary wiring.

I did make $19.20 today by taking the seats and ceiling panels to the scrapyard!

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

I could use a solenoid lesson...I think....

Started pulling wires. I started with the warning light flashers, moved to the speaker wires, then the interior dome lights. Seemed to be going okay...after each system I started the bus and checked all the lights.

I didn't check the wipers or the air door...neither works now.

I focused on the wipers first. Found there was no power to them. I looked at the panel. Are those solenoids in the upper left hand corner? I've got 12 volts coming from the left side of each unit, but nothing from the right posts either with the the key or the bus running. If I jump power from the left side to any contact on the bus bar, the wipers work.

Any ideas for my next step?

[EastCoastCB]

Sounds like a bad solenoid. I've replaced two.
Usually one is for starting the bus and one is for all the accessories.
NICE looking compartment!

[BlackJohn]

Your pics are good but don't show enough, like what wires are connected where on each solenoid. Make pics and notes of what you have now.

Follow each wire so you know where it goes on both ends.



Now check all fuses you can locate, the simple stuff first.
I assume you have a voltage tester, got an ohmmeter?

Know how to use and read these?

May need to ring out those solenoids, that is why you have to know what wires went where above. You'll be disconnecting every wire. It helps to understand how they go back once dis-connected. They are old, many cycles, but seems a strange coincidence they would fail at this time. Checking their operation, is the only answer.


Might be worth looking at battery connections at this point before getting in much deeper.


John

[PatrickBaptist]

Welcome aboard to the club!

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

Could be. I'm hoping that I can test them in place without pulling them out!

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

Well...haven't solved the puzzle but seem to be making progress!

The solenoids are good. If I jump the in-line to the control circuit, they kick on, the wipers move...and...the emergency door alarms sound.

I've disconnected the rear door alarm mechanism, though the wires are still in place. The side door alarm is kind of in place...a few of the wires have come off the spade connectors.

Tracing the control circuit wires I've found one goes to the heater switch (seems weird to me), another looks like it goes up into the ignition, and another goes back to the door alarm circuit. Do you think the door alarm circuit feeds power to the solenoid control circuit? Also seems weird but that seems to me the theory I'll test tomorrow. The bus starts, runs, the headlights and blinkers all work...

I'll try reconnecting the door alarms and see what happens!

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by ted@campbycanoe.com

I agree with Musigenesis...it's getting a but cold to paint / epoxy / caulk!

I did manage to get the floor patched and painted, but had to look to other projects before I get started on the windows. Supposed to be in the teens tonight.

Guess I'll start pulling the unnecessary wiring.

I did make $19.20 today by taking the seats and ceiling panels to the scrapyard!

Hey, I hadn't noticed this before, but you might want to consider removing the rear wall panels. There is possibly considerable corrosion underneath. In my case, it was from the gaskets on every light on the back of my bus failing and letting in considerable water.

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

You're right! I did...and did. Not TOO bad, but definitely a bit of rust in there. Any thoughts on getting out the little rounded parts in the corners? The wiring goes down through there but it looks like if you take out that section you are also taking out the window.

Thanks for the heads up!

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by ted@campbycanoe.com

You're right! I did...and did. Not TOO bad, but definitely a bit of rust in there. Any thoughts on getting out the little rounded parts in the corners? The wiring goes down through there but it looks like if you take out that section you are also taking out the window.

Thanks for the heads up!

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about with the rounded parts in the corners. Maybe post a current pic?

My bus is an IC so I'm not sure if your rear structure is exactly the same as mine. But I also thought the parts around the windows would pull the windows out with them, but it turned out to be no problem. The inside panels were not attached directly to the windows or their gaskets in any way - the windows are only attached to the outer skin. I was extremely delicate in peeling them away, though, and I had to cut the panels into smaller pieces while still attached in order to get it all off. The original fitting of the panels at the factory had bent the edges into the opening for the rear-most side windows, which made demo there more difficult than it needed to be.

Edit: I have no idea where the purple emoji title for this post came from. I can't seem to edit it.

[Native]

Here is yet another difference in bus designs ... our Thomas has/had a window sandwich in the back windows, or so to speak. The inner wall and outer skin both attached to the grommet. Perhaps attached is not the right word. The grommet has a slot for each of the skins on the outer edge of the rubber and one for the window in the middle inside of the grommet.

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

Here are some pictures.

Not sure if it's possible to remove the rounded back corners to check for rust.

Or, if I should remove the panels around the back windows to also check for rust and maybe run conduit for the wires that go to the back lights. I'm planning on sprayfoaming much of the bus in the spring, but don't want to spray foam the wires. Run conduit, maybe? Use rigid foam there instead?

[o1marc]

The corner pieces are screwed or riveted just like the rest of the panels and can be removed. On my International they had some sort of adhesive on the back side and could not be removed easily without bending them up. I had to make new ones so it wasn't an issue I damaged the old ones.

[musigenesis]

I can't speak on the corner bit - that seems to be something unique to Bluebirds with their funky sloped window back ends (no offense).

The openings for your lights (at least the one I can see there) seem completely un-rusted, so the leaking is likely coming from the windows or the flasher lights, higher up. Are there any visible rust trails on the parts of the back you've exposed so far?

[ted@campbycanoe.com]

One of the other openings further down looks pretty rusty so there's water coming in there (License plate light) but there could be more coming from the back window and the lights above. I plan on replacing all the light gaskets afer I paint the bus. I also haven't pulled the windows yet...I'm worried that it's too cold for new caulking to set up right.

I'll try to pull out the rest of the paneling just to make sure there are no surprises behind them.

Still wrestling with power to the solenoid and alarm buzzer issue. I reconnected the rear and side door alarm wires and when I jumped the solenoid I still had a buzzer going off in the wiring panel by the driver's seat. I'll still have to wrestle around with that.

I was also hoping that reconnecting them would somehow close a circuit that would give me power back to the control circuit of the solenoids. Nope.

So...problem has to be somewhere in the acccessory circuit...which looks like a royal pain in the patookis to trace because it's buried in a thick rope of wires that goes up under the dash, through several wiring harnesses and the then the ignition. And then what? Is it likely the ignition switch is bad? Everything else seems to work ok. Is there a fuse in there somewhere? I haven't run across any fuses yet, they seem to all be reset circuit breakers.

I will say, though, this engine seems great. Even with temps on the 20's and only one battery it starts right up and runs smoothly!

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by ted@campbycanoe.com

One of the other openings further down looks pretty rusty so there's water coming in there (License plate light)

Ah yes, the license plate light. That was the biggest culprit on my back end also.