One-way

[gbstewart]

welcome another ontario person, good see more of us with skoolies where abouts are you?
gbstewart

[browncrown]

Welcome to the forum. You have a very nice platform to build on, have fun in the conversion...and every conversion project should have its four-legged Supervisor

[bus-bro]

Looks good. What did you use for paneling?

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by Part-time

Well... Another week gone by and I got didley sqwat done.
Although it was mild out for a few days it was raining and windy and now it's back to the -10*C with a low of -22*C tonight.

Sooooo, I'v been doing a lot of thinking.

That can be a dangerous and expensive thing to do!

I'm going to put some ideas out here and see what you guys think of them.
Now I picked up a 60 gallon hot water tank that I was planing on using as a fresh water holding tank and I also have a 30 gallon which I was thinking of using for the shower. No hot and cold, just warm the water to a comfy temp and jump in. (why waste hydro to get the water hotter than it needs to be just to cool it off right)?
Need hotter water for the dishes? boil a kettle right?

for fulltiming in? That could get old really fast, especially in winter. Suggest slapping a little 6 gallon water heater in there. It is possible to take a nice shower with a 6 gallon water heater, depending on how icy cold your incoming water is. We have an electric 10 gallon home style tank that we turn on/off as needed. We started doing this after the first month when our power use skyrocketed. But now David is thinking someone misread the meter. All I know is I can turn the thing on and take a 10+ minute shower around 7 - 8PM. Turn it off and the well insulated tank still has warm water in it the next morning when David gets up shortly before I normally get home at 8:30AM. Turning the heater on/off as needed keeps our power use down. While our electric is included in our site rent for now, it's not like that in all parks for long-term monthly stays. Learning to keep our power use low on a daily basis now will create power saving habits that will benefit us later.

I have four plastic 15 gallon barrels that I was thinking of mounting underneath for holding the waste-water. So a 60 gallon to 60 gallon holding = no overflow if I always empty one while filling the other.

you still need the overflow as it doubles as a vent for the air to escape while the tanks fill. We have our fresh tank set up with a float valve to where the filtered water flows in when the water level drops to a certain point and shuts off when it reaches "full". We stay hooked up to water all the time. This set up will allow us to not have to babysit the fresh tank while filling it when we travel (wallydock for up to 3 nights, stop in full hookup site one night to dump black & grey tanks and fill fresh tank overnight while we sleep... we are lazy) We only have a single 30 gallon tank for now. We will add another 30 gallon tank this summer. We plan on traveling with only one 30 gallon tank filled and will place a shut off valve between the two tanks.

So I should find myself a (60 gallon???) for black holding.... or is that overkill?
I want to use an RV toilet so I won't be using a gallon or more every flush.

we have about 25 gallons plus our vanity sink is plumbed into the black tank to make sure we get enough water in it. We have a vintage Mansfield Traveler 910... it uses water in pints not gallons. Since "best practices" indicate that you dump a black tank only when full or almost full (so rush of outgoing water sucks the tank empty), you need to decide if 60 gallons is okay with you. For us, 25 gallons is plenty for up to 3 nights (our "base" we use for everything)

Now for the levels in the tanks... the 60 gallon hot water tank that I'll be using for fresh water holding... I'll use a clear tube that's hooked up top and bottom to the tank, no problem.
The four 15 gallon barrels for the grey water are a somewhat semi-transparent white plastic so if I peek under the bus every once in a while I will be able to see no problem.
What do I do for the black??? And no I don't really want to see it so what's another way to monitor the level that isn't going to get all plugged up?

First off... Grey water has "debris" in it. You may want to use the 60 gallon tank for the grey and the translucent multiple tanks for the fresh. Otherwise you may have a problem with the multiple grey tanks not flushing out all the debris. Grey tanks get very nasty over time.

For us, the auto fill works great for the fresh tanks. When we are on hookups, it's always filling unless it is full (our filters lower our water flow dramatically) or I suck the fresh tank dry taking a shower (it sputters... our Shurflo 2088 Classic can run dry with no problems. On full hookups, we bypass the grey holding tank and drain all grey water directly into the sewer drain. When not on hookups... that's why your grey tank is larger than your fresh tank. Our grey tank is only a few gallons larger than the single fresh (to allow for extra "liquids" (partial store bought drinks dumped down the sink, liquids from canned veggies, etc). This is why we will travel with only a single 30 gallon fresh tank filled. On the black tank... the toilet will "burp" when you flush once it fills to a certain point. That "certain point" is the down pipe that goes from the toilet into the tank. It extends X inches into your black tank. Our drop pipe extends into the tank itself by 2 to 3 inches. So when the fluid gets to the bottom of the pipe it will start burping when you flush. The fuller it gets, the bigger the burp. Don't be leaning over the toilet if has started burping. We usually dump the next morning if it starts burping at night. As for WHY 25 gallon black tank... It's what we bought (used) and the blue boy tote tank we have holds 32 gallons. Many public parks do not have sewer hookups at the site. The ones that do only tend to have a limited number. Doing a partial dump of grey isn't all that bad. Doing a partial dump on a black tank is not a good idea. Nor is hauling a really full tote tank. If you have not bought a tote tank, get a 4 wheeled one. My two wheeler gets very heavy when full and is rough to shift and tip up on end to dump when filled to the max.

Can't really tell you what to do, only what we have done. It's up to you to pick out things that you think will work for you.

[roach711]

Lookin' good so far!

Is that a water heater in the back corner?

[browncrown]

You're moving right along, and I love the "just because" horns

[roach711]

Originally Posted by Part-time

The 60 gallon is going to be my fresh water holding tank and the 30 gallon is for the hot water. I'll just fire up the generator a bit before I want to take a shower.

Very clever idea!

[Newfiedogs]

You are going to do well under canine supervision. In his little dog brain he thinks that this is all being done for him. Well and it is...
Tracy

[bansil]

We love that rustic floor,are going to poly then sand and re poly? or is it slippers only while in bus?
Our floor is not bare foot friendly either...due to cutoff bolts that havent been knocked thru the floor

[bapos]

Going to steal this thread for a moment cause it looks like your at a point in your build where this question would come up?

Do you put all your plumbing access through the floor first then put in the flooring or the other way around? Not sure there is a wrong way but I know in the world of car restoration you do things in a certain order or you will do them over again and will end up costing more money. Your thoughts would be appreciated


Bapos

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by Part-time

... The 60 gallon ...fresh water holding.

...The kitchen sink is going over the wheelwell and the 30 gallon hot water tank will be hiding under the kitchen counter.

...My greywater holding is 60 gallons as well so I never have to worry about going over.

60 gallons + 30 gallons = 90 gallons
You don't really use a whole lot of water to flush with. We plumbed our vanity sink into the black tank to make sure we got enough water in the black tank and it's still "iffy" on TP heavy times (only women will understand ).

How tall is the 30 gallon tank? How much height do you have under the counter for the tank? Jut asking be cause that is how we went from 20 gallon water heater to 10 gallon water heater... missed it by that much! If there was only 2" more space! And that was including sitting the heater on the floor. My sinks were too deep.

[nat_ster]

Using your hot water heater wired for 240 volt is no more efficient than running it off two individual 15 amp, 120 volt wires. The only saving is the wire to attach it.

Since buses are only so big, there will be no real saving on a wire run that short. If it were in a 4000 square foot house, where the water heater was 100 feet from the breaker panel, it would make a difference.

For simplicity, and versatility, I would wire it using 120. You can also run one element at a time if you need to. Say your parking, and have access to a 15 amp shore connection, and don't want to run a generator. One element only takes 1500 of the 1800 watts available. Lights and a flat panel TV could be running while your hot water is heating up.

Nat

Posted for educational purposes only.

[lornaschinske]

I wouldn't do 240 either. But that is a personal thing. We stay on shore power and at that it's 30 amp. Why? Because we are CHEAP... 30 amp sites cost less than 50 amp sites... Residential Vehicles set up for 30 amp tend to (in our case) use less power than similar 50 amp which comes in handy when you are parked some place and paying $0.14 or more per KWH... most of the public campground we have stayed over the years tend to have 15/20/30 amp power poles.... we do not completely trust that the newly "upgraded to 50 amp receptacle" on old 15/20/30 amp power poles are completely safe... many 50 amp receptacles tend to be damaged in some way. I've seen an awful lot of damaged 50 amp receptacles as I've plugged my 30 amp plug into a power pole. It's as if they use the wrong plug... but that surely can't be. 50 amp RV plugs and receptacles are specifically a certain kind. They are wired a specific way. Not the same as residential 50 amp (or so I understand).

Many places, particularly boondocking places, only allow generators (no matter how quiet) run for a few hours between certain hours. NF & BLM do enforce these times. Others will report you. Some will confront you in a not so nice way. Boondockers are off their nut in many cases.

We wallydock (pavement parking, overnight parking in a parking lot) and there are some parking lots that will not allow a generator or semi-truck engines to be run past a certain time (like the Wal-Mart in New Braunfels, TX) due to the neigbourhood(s) sitting next door. Most folks don't park for more than one night in a parking lot. But we might stay a couple nights in Sept if we stop by Socorro for a few days. We will just park in the parking lot of the store my daughter works at. We'll ask her "permission"!

Rethink your water. If it's "clean enough to swim in" is not a good way to determine your potable water source, even for just showering. If you must do that, then invest in a reverse osmosis setup with a boondocker recycling tank. We drink the campground/rest area/garden center water hose tap water... after it has gone thru the sediment filter and the DB2 or similar filter which knocks the flow rate down to 1 gpm the filtered water flows into our fresh/potable water holding tank. We always pump from the holding tank. Currently we have only a 30 gallon holding tank but I will add another 30 gallon tank this summer (with valves so we can shut it off and travel with only the 30 gallons fresh). We have the tank set up to where it will start filling when a (modified) water tank float valve opens and closes when the float valve is in the "full" position. This works great for us since neither one of us wants to hang around waiting for the tank to S-L-O-W-L-Y fill... at 1--gallon--per--minute... (yes, I did just watch Sneakers again) and then overflow all over the ground because we walked away and forgot all about it. Like we would ever do that!

[nat_ster]

[quote=Part-time][quote="nat_ster":s5z9ie0z]Using your hot water heater wired for 240 volt is no more efficient than running it off two individual 15 amp, 120 volt wires. The only saving is the wire to attach it. ...

Posted for educational purposes only.[/quote]

2 individual 15 amp, 120v (the red and the black in most cases) = 30 amp 240volt...
1 live (either the black [b][u]or[/u][/b] the red) + 1 white (common) = 15 amp 120v
Same amount of wires.[/quote:s5z9ie0z]


Not quite.
Wiring the tank in 240 you only need one run of Romex 12 / 2. That uses the black wire to the hot side of the elements, and the white to the red wire on the tank. Then connect the ground, and your done. Wiring this way is called split-phase electricity. It doesn't require a common wire.



If you wire the tank to use two 120 circuits, you would need two runs of Romex 12 / 2, or one run of Romex 12 / 3. Wiring this way you need the common wire.



In short 120 wiring is always a loop. Requires a common wire to return to the panel. 240 wiring the common wire is eliminated.

For reference.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power[/url]

More good reading.
http://waterheatertimer.org/Figure-Volt ... eater.html

Nat

Posted for educational purposes only.

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by Part-time

... I'm putting a 60 amp panel in the bus.... overkill, but I like it that way and the panel was free

It's your bus. You build it the way you want, not the way the rest of us want. Because there is no one way to convert a bus.

[bus-bro]

I put in a Square D 100 amp distribution panel. It was less than $30. Then you buy a separate ground bar, so you can have an isolated neutral bar. They also sell a little piece of plastic that locks a breaker in the panel so that that breaker can backfeed the panel (that is, be your main circuit breaker.) So, for somewhere around fifty-plus dollars you have an NEC approved power panel in your bus.

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by Part-time

Natster... your last example, using 12/3, is not a 240v set up, that is 120v to each element.
Yes, That's why the diagram pic say's 120 volt right on it.

Your 1st example using the red and the black is 240v and is just what I said I was going to do...
Now my tank only has ONE element. My bad, I didn't realize you had a single element. Thanks for the correction.

It is made to be used on 240v but I could have wired it using only 120v, but it would have been slower heating up and taken more energy to do it. Slower heating yes. Take more energy, No. We need to keep this info correct for others that learn from it in the future.

Love the conversion, Just doing my part to keep the learning resources factual.

Nat

Posted for educational purposes only.

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by Part-time

I'll be more specific... my generator will be my main source of power for the hot water tank.
So if I cut down the run time on my generator I save gas.
gas = energy (and that you really learn the day you have to push a 900# Harley 2 blocks uphill to the neerest gas station, just then do you realize just how much energy is in a cup of gasoline )

So a two element tank would have been a better choice? Less energy again?

I just installed two new, duel element electric water heating tanks to run a Hydronic heating system. I found the price from one element to two is only $20.

I feel your pain. I have had to push a few cars uphill to the gas station.

Nat

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by Part-time

I don't even know if they make those little tanks with 2 elements...
I bought it used for $50 but it's only 6 months old. The guy decided to go with natural gas furnace/hot water boiler system.
He also gave me the 70 gallon tank for free, he said it was about 2 years old at most.
You got a good deal.

As long as they guy you got the tanks from didn't have high mineral in his water, your home free. The only thing that really fails on electric hot water tanks, are the elements ( cheap $25 ) thermostats ( $25 ) and the sacrificial anode corrodes, all after 5 to 10 years. If you change the sacrificial anode before it fails completely, you will extend your water heaters life span to almost double. That's why tanks with bigger sacrificial anodes have a longer warranty.

Yes, they make small tanks with two elements. Most residential tanks only operate one element at a time, unless you rewire them. Rewiring them is a simple proses. You can also change the elements from the 3000W factory installed, to a 4500w for faster warm up. ( $25 at most places )

Next step is to see if I can set the thermostat on the tank down to 85*-90*F
Why waste energy heating up the water just to cool it back down with cold water to get it to a comfy temp right?
I will only have one water line/tap going to the shower.
I will also need a thermometer that can be installed in the tank with a remote read out.

This all depends on how much hot water you need. Keep in mind most cold water is 30 degrees colder than you want to use on you body. If the water in your tank is not hot enough to overcome the cold water entering the tank, you will be left with a cold shower.

Keep in mind that electric water heaters heaters are 100% efficient. Unlike gas units, hotter water only uses the energy needed to heat the water. In gas units, the efficiency drops the hotter you try to make the water. The waste heat go's up the vent stack. Electric can't put the heat anywhere but into the water.

Also you MUST make sure your water heater is 100% full with no air inside. They should also remain under min 30 psi pressure. Failure to do so will result in a melted element.

And now the part you asked about. Turning the thermostat up and down is as simple as pulling the cover, ( two 1\4 screws ) and using a flat screwdriver, turn the little plastic screw in the middle of the thermostat clockwise.


Nat

Posted for educational purposes only.

[gbstewart]

I really like my propane 6gal hot water tank, works great , just light it up with a match then hot water, nice and simple for me
gbstewart