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Old 04-06-2013, 03:36 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 43
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International
Engine: 7.3l non-powerstroke
Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Had a full size (11 window) 1989 international 7.3l, went to work on it after being parked for 4 yrs.. Long story short: the motor was locked up! Dick move ole bus.. Took all the good accessories off, scrapped it for cash and started looking for another.
Found it in two days! A 1992 international 7 window with wheelchair lift, auto tranny, with all the seats. Paid a lot more than I wanted to and for less windows than I wanted, but I could not pass up getting the exact same motor and I figure I can make just about anything work.
So, I am making myself pull the inner roof panels and insulate the pants off it. Never have done this with any other bus but I know how hot/cold it can get. Started to remove the side wire panels, no biggie: push up in hopes that they will slid up their intended tab and clear the upper window rails (I hope to reuse as much as possible) Bent one of them a bit, but it will push back to my satisfaction.
Now, took the angle grinder with cut off wheel to a few of the 200+ rivets in the roof.. UGH! Too loud besides being a pain. Then punched out the center shaft, and drilled with dipping the bit in old oil twice a rivet. At first it was going well, much better than the grinder. I got excited because it looked like we could reuse the panels after insulating! then had to change bits as it got dull after about 30 rivets. Went down in size first, then the rivets spun out.. Then up the original size and it was late.. Don't know if I am pushing too hard or what but they all spun out. Went to bed. Now I am going to lowes... See what the bits cost, blah, blah... Here are pics of the damage thus far:





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Old 04-06-2013, 08:58 PM   #2
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Year: 1992
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Engine: 7.3l non-powerstroke
Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Check it out!!! 2 hours and a 3/4" cold chisel.. No better way to remove the 200+ steel rivets (kinda glad its a 7 window now) going to get insulation now and then just putting the panels back up to keep as much head room as possible AND we don't have to buy any thing!!
What rivet do you sudgest? aluminum ok?
What do we need to do to the floor to protect the underlayment for the floating floor? If paint and calk the hole are the answer, what is the least expensive paint I can get??????

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Old 04-06-2013, 09:20 PM   #3
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Steel & aluminum are two metals that will react unfavourably with each other. You should use steel rivet in steel material. But that's up to you. It's your bus and your decision. But I would suggest you research the steel and aluminum combo .
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:25 PM   #4
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Oh i see. Great feedback and thank you! I was sitting here waiting till the last minute before lowes closes to see what this awesome forum may have to say.. Would a harbor freight rivet gun be able to do the job ya think? It just grabs on to the shank right?
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:32 PM   #5
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Year: 1992
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Actually I have another question, I am confused to the science between insulation and condensation.. I used the 3/4" foam insulation on my aluminum camper-shell and I taped the unions where the insulation and the frame members met... and when we camp out with us two and the two dogs breathing all night, water droplet will form on the rails still exposed (it was like 20F degrees)... Should I not tape the unions? Does the air need to circulate or something? I'm guessing no tape and just fit the pieces tightly to the frame rails?
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:46 PM   #6
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Look up "thermal break". You need it.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:43 AM   #7
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Year: 1992
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Ok, I did a bunch of reading last night.. I'm understanding why the camper shell had visible condensation (the frame was directly exposed to the warm inner air.) Now do I need to insulate between the frame rails and the inner metal skin?? Maybe that blue foam in a roll for insulating between the bottom plate of a timber home and the concrete foundation? I would prefer not to of coarse. I am thinking of still using that high tech tape to seal the back side of the insulation/roof from hidden condensation.
After pouring through old threads I found the 2" foam will not flex with the roof. (its $25 a sheet). I am thinking I am going to use the foam board with the reflective stuff on the back (facing out) that it 3/4" and just do two layers (its just over $10 a sheet, so cheaper, woo!)
Would the frame rails transfer enough cold through the reused metal skin to form visible condensation?
I am contemplating using the metal only in the center few feet and then thin ply wood from there to the wire cover metal..


What else besides calking all the unions of the inner materials to prevent warm moist air from entering the abyss and causing hidden condensation... Will the wood prevent the transfer of cold from the frame rails? do I need to worry about my fasteners material? I really appreciate all the input.. Feel like Johny 5 here, NEED MORE INPUT. I can't sleep with this project on my mind, so much to consider!
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:29 PM   #8
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

So, got all the insulation done today! We did the blue underlay stuff (comes in an accordion of 50'x4' at $2 and the 3/4" reflective foam stuff ($13 a 4'x8' sheet) We still have to tape all the unions. I am going to be sure to tape the old rivet holes. I am thinking about maybe duck tape on the frame rails? as the fasteners pass through it I would imagine it may seal some? I really don't want to use construction glue (I don't know if they have it for metal or just wood) I am a messy person and would definitely get it all over the place but I figure that may be the best solution for the thermal break between the metal and the frame? and we didn't find the right size rivet at lowes to replace the old. Instead we got flush (not counter-sunk) self-tapping Phillips with extra wide heads to remount the metal.

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Old 04-08-2013, 09:31 PM   #9
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Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

Wood against metal will still transfer cold. In some cases it will still transfer the cold enough to cause condensation. Foam tape, sill gasket, or any other type of foam material will give you that thermal break you need.

Do not use duct tape in construction. It will fail before long. Tuck tape, or any of the construction tech tapes are made for the job, and will last a vary long time.
Acoustical calking is messy tar like stuff that never dries, remains air tight, and flexible. Vary useful in sealing out drafts.

Thinner Styrofoam sheets will take the bend. 3/4" thick at the most. The thicker, the less the bend it will take before breaking.

A little Styrofoam go's a long way.

Nat

Posted for educational purposes only.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:05 PM   #10
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Year: 1992
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Engine: 7.3l non-powerstroke
Re: Out with the old, in with the new 7 window

okay, well I am glad I got something that I think will work (please god because I just did it).. It is pipe wrap tape ($8 for 30'). Very similar to both suggestions. I put it between the interior metal sheeting and the frame member. The metal was tough to get back up!! We could not get the rivets to line up proper while wrestling the larger sheets and driving the self-tappers was a chore. (best to pre-drill)
So about the wood to frame member contact.. I guess I will go ahead and use the foam tape under it too. At this point it is a forced move, and my wood is fairly thin.
Do school buses with the factory insulation accumulate condensation with the intended cargo? (a bunch of bodies breathing hot moisture)?
I hope to get the ceiling wood hung and old flooring tore up by thurs night... we will see. I was wanting to keep the rear heater. I have pulled those before and I think its not worth it. Besides, if the bus were to overheat or something horrible it would serve as a good heat sink. I intend to just cut the rubber at the factory shield in hopes that the floor looks as good as the roof did (no rust), paint it with the rustolium metal primer, calk the holes...floating laminate with the thin foam underlayment.(I always see half boxes on craigs list)

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