The Broccoli Bus

[somewhereinusa]

That chassis grabber looks cool, but I don't know how I'd slip that one part over the frame

It does but, roughly $200 a pair for 10 inch frame. I used to just make something similar for the truck. I would think you have enough room between frame and floor to install though. At least on a Bluebird there is about 2 inches between frame and floor.
When I hang things between the frames, I lay a channel across the frame ( I use the stuff that hiway signs are bolted to, kinda like an erector set)
, make clamps to clamp them to the frame then suspend things from that. You can also also extend that piece out past the frame and suspend from that.

[cadillackid]

arent the frames of school busses generally over-kill for the load that is actually in the bus? where adding weight .. distributed.. shouldnt hurt? paying attention to right / left and front / back loading... and adjusting tire pressures accordingly.. if your bus has air-ride wouldnt that also adjust itself for any additional loading or lack thereof.. (ie if your water tanks are empty vs full).. seems like a bus changed weight quite a bit and handled uneven distribution well.. if you use 80 lbs for average child weight and a capacity of 60. thats a 4800 lb difference plus fuel.. and maybe on average a 500-1000 lbs of books and bags? seems like adding to the frame wouldnt hurt that much.. after all when these things are used as Box-trucks they are putting pallets of goods in the box.. even taking into consideration a bus body being heavier than a box body..

-Christopher

[family wagon]

I confess I live dangerously by not unplugging the computers before welding on the bus... but I'd avoid drilling the frame. I have no personal anecdotes to back it up, only the perception that many manufacturers warn against drilling, cutting, or welding on the frame.

What about a truss? It just so happens that the Wikipedia truss article today features a photo of a truss bridge near the top, which I'll deep link here in hopes that they allow cross-site images:


I'm picturing the truss sized so that one water tank fits in the space at the bottom leg of each of the triangles. The truss could be bisected vertically and separated in the center so that the two halves sit outside the frame rails and the top and bottom chords extend all the way across, so that the whole affair hangs on the top of the frame rail. Maybe more triangles would be needed in the center section; I dunno. I wonder whether it's even possible to get such a long top chord piece slid in over the frame rail and below the floor...

Edit: Maybe I should clarify: I think this differs from your original sketch only in that I see the top end of the hypotenuse of the outer triangles being out away from the frame, perhaps between the two tanks, instead of the way it was sketched earlier.

[aaronsb]

I think you and I are thinking exactly the same thing. The only difference between that photo of a bridge and what I want to build is that it hangs from the frame at the top.

That first sketch was a little incorrect and I'll have the diagonal stringer pulling from the top of the frame, not the bottom.

This means that the force from the tankage mass will try to put the center bar in compression. Assuming I select the proper cross section of structural steel I think it'll work out great. I'm leaning towards just building something that sort of lays into the frame channel and is clamped, and then some bolt holes through the cross member to keep it from sliding fore to aft.

First up, I have to finish welding together the framing for the shower stall. Tanks and their trusses/supports/brackets/mounts will come up next I think.

Originally Posted by family wagon

I confess I live dangerously by not unplugging the computers before welding on the bus... but I'd avoid drilling the frame. I have no personal anecdotes to back it up, only the perception that many manufacturers warn against drilling, cutting, or welding on the frame.

What about a truss? It just so happens that the Wikipedia truss article today features a photo of a truss bridge near the top, which I'll deep link here in hopes that they allow cross-site images:


I'm picturing the truss sized so that one water tank fits in the space at the bottom leg of each of the triangles. The truss could be bisected vertically and separated in the center so that the two halves sit outside the frame rails and the top and bottom chords extend all the way across, so that the whole affair hangs on the top of the frame rail. Maybe more triangles would be needed in the center section; I dunno. I wonder whether it's even possible to get such a long top chord piece slid in over the frame rail and below the floor...

Edit: Maybe I should clarify: I think this differs from your original sketch only in that I see the top end of the hypotenuse of the outer triangles being out away from the frame, perhaps between the two tanks, instead of the way it was sketched earlier.

[thjakits]

Aaronsb,

just keep the VERY basic engineering principles close by:

a] TRIANGULATE!! Everything!
b] Avoid twist and bend - go for pressure and tension where possible
c] Try to stack things instead of hanging them - e.g. Put a beam on TOP of a column instead of welding it to the side of the column

IF you adhere to triangulation principles as much as possible you mostly eliminate worries about b]

With c] you eliminate a LOT of worries about your welding prowess and long term stress corrosion....

Cheers,

thjakits

[family wagon]

There was something mentioned a day or two ago about maybe putting in some kind of heating pad below the tanks. Because I've been hoping/planning to use a Webasto to heat a glycol loop in my bus, I figured maybe I'd coil some PEX under each tank and make it a zone off the glycol system. Then I realized it's a little easier, for the fresh water at least, to simply have a valve off the domestic hot water output and dump that water back into the fresh tank(s). Maybe the water could run through the tube below the waste tank first, instead of having a glycol zone there.

What ideas are you entertaining for tank heating?

[cadillackid]

what if you ran a heat exchanger off of your engine coolant loop? (your gloycol loop as indirect heat exchanger..so when your bus is plugged into shore power your block heater keeps the glycol loop warm enough to not freeze your tanks... the pump could even be battery(12 volt) operated so even in a period of power failure you would still have heat for awhile.....

then while you are driving that heat exchanger operates also to keep the tanks warm.. potable is easy as you say you can have a hot water heater return.. but gray / black you dont want to freeze either.. driving in 20 below weather even insulated tanks are going to get cold fast if they are located in any unconditioned space on your bus.. but at that point you have all the engine heat you need.. in fact your glycol loop could even heat your potable Hot water tank while you are driving if you want it to.

-Christopher

[aaronsb]

I am considering a couple ideas:

Electric holding tank heater, great for stationary thermal management if it's plugged in. - http://www.amazon.com/JR-Products-HT.../dp/B000BGK1XE

Engine coolant heat loop. I'm not sure if I can just re-purpose one of the hurri-hot heater cores in the bay, or if I should make a custom loop.

A variant on this is to use an auxiliary electric coolant pump, with zero pressure suction and return lines on a leg of the coolant loop to the front. The hot coolant would only be pulled as needed when the pump cycles.

Finally, this depends on if I want an instant hot water heater or a small tank, but a re-circulation loop on a hot water tank could also provide heating for the tanks through the same means as the engine coolant heater.

Originally Posted by family wagon

There was something mentioned a day or two ago about maybe putting in some kind of heating pad below the tanks. Because I've been hoping/planning to use a Webasto to heat a glycol loop in my bus, I figured maybe I'd coil some PEX under each tank and make it a zone off the glycol system. Then I realized it's a little easier, for the fresh water at least, to simply have a valve off the domestic hot water output and dump that water back into the fresh tank(s). Maybe the water could run through the tube below the waste tank first, instead of having a glycol zone there.

What ideas are you entertaining for tank heating?

[dan-fox]

Originally Posted by skoolie_n00bie

Remember the Prius and the Volt are two different animals.
The Volt is designed to be primarily an electric car with gas genny assistance, the Prius is the other way around, basically.
I don't recall specs, specifically, but i believe the volt has more batteries, and they are li-ion vs the Prius having.....other types of batteries.
However this needs references, not just my brain vomit...

You are quite correct about the basic architecture of the two cars. My Prius is a plug-in hybrid, with 4.4 kwh of NiMH in it. Your more typical Prius has a 1.3 kwh NiMH in it.

The Volt touts a 65 mile electric only range IIRC. My Prius has made it 9-11 miles several times, but Toyota doesn't publish a spec for that. The "conventional" Prius maybe gets out of the parking lot on electric, but the engine kicks in at ~20 mph. The electric is there to augment a very anemic internal combustion setup.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by dan-fox

You are quite correct about the basic architecture of the two cars. My Prius is a plug-in hybrid, with 4.4 kwh of NiMH in it. Your more typical Prius has a 1.3 kwh NiMH in it.

The Volt touts a 65 mile electric only range IIRC. My Prius has made it 9-11 miles several times, but Toyota doesn't publish a spec for that. The "conventional" Prius maybe gets out of the parking lot on electric, but the engine kicks in at ~20 mph. The electric is there to augment a very anemic internal combustion setup.

the original volt was 36 All electric miles.. then went up 2 each year until 2016 where its been increaed to 55 or 60 I think...

the volt operates completely different than a PRIUS too.. as even at 100 MPH the engine wont come on unless the batteries are dead or unless you have selected a mode to maintain the current battery charge state... or if you select Mountain mode it will keep the batteries at a constant 40% so you can climb hills with both electrics and engine.. (the volt COULD couple the engine directly to the transmission though the ring gear) being both a Series and parallel hybrid..

my Volt never slowed down in the mountains.. I ran it at 75 MPH up the steepest hills....

-Christopher

[dan-fox]

IIRC the Prius claims that it can be driven by both the electric and combustion engines simultaneously, but I'll admit that I never did fully grok that gearbox they brag about so much.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by dan-fox

IIRC the Prius claims that it can be driven by both the electric and combustion engines simultaneously, but I'll admit that I never did fully grok that gearbox they brag about so much.

it does exactly that... its a full parallel hybrid so the electric motor will run with the gas motor under heavy acceleration...

[skoolie_n00bie]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the original volt was 36 All electric miles.. then went up 2 each year until 2016 where its been increaed to 55 or 60 I think...

the volt operates completely different than a PRIUS too.. as even at 100 MPH the engine wont come on unless the batteries are dead or unless you have selected a mode to maintain the current battery charge state... or if you select Mountain mode it will keep the batteries at a constant 40% so you can climb hills with both electrics and engine.. (the volt COULD couple the engine directly to the transmission though the ring gear) being both a Series and parallel hybrid..

my Volt never slowed down in the mountains.. I ran it at 75 MPH up the steepest hills....

-Christopher

If Chevy keeps up production, the Volt might be my next car. I loved it when it first came out, and it can only get better! Hope that Tesla competition puts fire under the big 3's asses...now back on topic....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[CaptSquid]

Originally Posted by family wagon

What ideas are you entertaining for tank heating?

RV Holding Tank Blanket on Sale - PPL Motor Homes

[Stu & Filo. T]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

it does exactly that... its a full parallel hybrid so the electric motor will run with the gas motor under heavy acceleration...

I want a pre smog Jeep Wagoneer with a 4 cylinder Diesel as my toad.

[aaronsb]

Just thought I'd show some stuff happening.

Shower's installed. I need to come up with a shower door I'm happy with probably. The hole is drilled in the floor for the drain, so that's cool.


Door latches are nice. The entrance door closes with a nice automotive style "thunk" and locks. I have a neat spring retracting air ram and a pneumatic circuit (not shown) that pops the latch, then proceeds to use the air ram to open the door. Sequencing is all mechanical so I won't break stuff. I just noticed you can barely see through the bottom window the old metal bar for the "vandal lock" on the original bus door, laying on the ground. Man that thing really sucked.


Some more significant framing. This is the dresser/closet frame for the rear bed. It'll get some slider doors for access, and probably some sort of birch wood finish paneling. The full size murphy bed folds up against this.

[dan-fox]

Nice work! I had wondered about the use of square tubing vs 2.4's in framing out the interior. I do believe that inches count, and you save some there.

Any idea if that 1"(?) stull you're using weighs more or less than a 2x4 on a per-linear-foot basis?

I was thinking that foam interior and Formica/WilsonArt surfaces might be one way to go in making a frame into a wall. How are you planning to finish those? Have you found any way to run any utilities inside them? Inquiring minds etc..............

Thanks in advance -

[dgorila1]

[QUOTE=aaronsb;144168]


Door latches are nice. The entrance door closes with a nice automotive style "thunk" and locks. I have a neat spring retracting air ram and a pneumatic circuit (not shown) that pops the latch, then proceeds to use the air ram to open the door. Sequencing is all mechanical so I won't break stuff. I just noticed you can barely see through the bottom window the old metal bar for the "vandal lock" on the original bus door, laying on the ground. Man that thing really sucked.


Looking great aaron! Can you provide more pics of the door latch and opener and what parts are needed to construct it. Neat looking setup.

[Docsgsxr]

I'm going to assume you are waiting to get everything on the inside of the door completed before you insulate and add the panel for the inside?? And yeah, the auto lock sounds like a great idea. maybe you can get a remote actuator to use a key FOB with it.

[aaronsb]

Kiln dried untreated Douglas Fir 2"x4" (actual 1.5"x3.5") lumber is specified to weigh 1.28 lbs per linear foot. This can change with prolonged exposure to humidity and variation in suppliers, species, and other variables.

1"x1"x.065 seam weld ASTM steel tube is .814 lbs per linear foot.

Ends fixed, the calculated deflection for a 4' section is 0.218" with a center load of 100 lbs.

For the 2x4 beam, it's a little different (because rectangle)

Positioned so the farthest fiber is vertical, a 4' section with the same 100 lb point load in the middle would flex 0.4 inches. FF positioned horizontal you're looking at somewhere around 2.2 inches of deflection at the load point.

Summary:
So, for a nominal length, the 1" square steel tube in any orientation is about as strong as the 2x4 is in it's strong orientation when given a static load. Please remember thats not a linear relationship, and a longer section of 2x4 oriented FF vertical may flex less than the same length of tube.

Steel weighs less per linear foot.

I would also hold some other assumptions, listed here:

The steel has a higher propensity to bend and not come back to it's original strength, so +1 for wood

Wood can get wet, mold, splinter, and is far more difficult to control. +1 steel

Steel can rust. +1 wood

Wood requires more "technology" to anchor together properly. +1 steel

Wood is easier for average folks to work with. +1 wood

Steel is easier for me to work with than wood +1 steel. (I can weld steel with the same ease as hot gluing popsicle sticks together)

Originally Posted by dan-fox

Nice work! I had wondered about the use of square tubing vs 2.4's in framing out the interior. I do believe that inches count, and you save some there.

Any idea if that 1"(?) stull you're using weighs more or less than a 2x4 on a per-linear-foot basis?

I was thinking that foam interior and Formica/WilsonArt surfaces might be one way to go in making a frame into a wall. How are you planning to finish those? Have you found any way to run any utilities inside them? Inquiring minds etc..............

Thanks in advance -