The Newman Skoolie! - Page 14

Jman6631 · 05-24-2016, 03:40 PM

The design goal is to completely seal and skin over rear of the bus, that means no windows and no door, except for the new tailgate -

. I had previously planned on cutting the existing door down to a 24" height starting at the floor level, and then building the garage roof/bed platform at 24". But, the resulting door would have only left me a small opening to the garage with what I felt was limited access to all that I had planned to install in there (potable water system, WVO, etc).

The tailgate idea came to me as a way to have bigger/easier access to the garage from the outside, e.g., it will replace the existing door. What I'll do is raise the roof as planned and frame/skin over the entire rear of the bus as needed while accommodating the tailgate and the garage. Does that make sense?

After I got this tailgate in my grubby hands it occurred to me that I could use them as doors for the storage bins I'm building below deck. I do have the two 24" shuttle doors that I planned to use for this already but these tailgates are a really good solution for this, too...so...we'll see!

Robin97396 · 05-24-2016, 05:23 PM

Sounds good to me. You've got some pretty reasonable ideas in my opinion. It's been interesting watching you gather information and formulate different ideas. I like the unusual and you're paring that well with common sense.

Jman6631 · 05-24-2016, 06:29 PM

Cuell, thanks for the props Robin!

Jolly Roger · 05-24-2016, 07:01 PM

[QUOTE=Jman6631;149524]I went to the Virginia School of Metal located between Charlottesville and Richmond. Depending on where you are in Ohio you could prolly make this. It's a weekend course of two 8 hour days. Can't say enough...

I left with all the basics I need to do a decent hack job on my bus...just don't look behind the curtain at all the nasty welds, please!

https://www.vaschoolofmetal.com/[/
Have to ask did you do two passes or one?
If your worried about your dirt dobber nest as a finished product then your trying to do 1 pass and your not penetrating, wire speeds not right and your not comfortable using your machine.
That's a roof raise ready to lower itself?
Adjust your machine until you are comfortable and it will make you look good.
Wire heat,wire speed, hand speed, and you being comfortable in the position you are welding in.
Flux core does leave the flux coating on the outside/visual side of the weld so use a wire brush to clean it, hand brush or a wire wheel on a grinder? And look at it then? If it is dobbered and you didn't penetrate then play with yourself and your machine and you will find a solution. I use a bastard file for cleaning most not all of my 7018 welds
Use the side handle on your grinder, wear your dang gome glasses when your grinding even if it is weld weld slag.
Those little things are better done hot but suck when they run down your drawers?

Jman6631 · 06-17-2016, 09:07 AM

Finally had a chance to try out the little gasless HF mig I got off craigslist.

I started slow and light and built up from there. At first were the expected outcomes where the pieces were easily disconnected after the fact. I was going too fast on the low setting on pieces that were not gapped. Then I slowed down, set the machine to high and gapped the pieces slightly and that made all the difference.

At first I was able to pry or knock the pieces apart fairly easily. Then after modifying my approach I had much better and stronger welds. Here is one test on the high settings where I slowed down and slightly gapped the pieces and laid a bead on both sides. I tried everything to break it apart including putting it in the vice and smacking it with a 3lbs mini sledge:

Here is another test where I welded both sides. I put it in the vice and pounded a cold chisel into the gap on one end and it would not split, and I got pretty violent with it, too!

I cut them open to see what I could see and it wasn't very clear visually if they were good welds or not. The "tests" I performed to break them apart proved it well enough to me but I was hoping for something more obvious on the cross section.

I'm inclined to proceed with this unless anyone knows of a good reason why I shouldn't? I'm also on the fence enough to be seriously considering a stick welder. I understand they are probably the next best option for me as far as welders go for this project.

Thoughts?

thjakits · 06-17-2016, 01:10 PM

Mate,

NOT to crush your ambitions, but to be brutally honest - anything you show in the pics are NOT welds. These may hold a while, but eventually they will corrode out - but structurally they are way not there!!
I suggest you get some reading material and get on youtube and do a little self-schooling on the subject.
If you can - get a basic welding course!
[Vocational stuff in the area....]

Even welds with beautiful beads can be "foul" - welds with lousy beads are DEFINITELY "foul" - your's I would not even call beads....

Do NOT do anything on your vehicle, before you get the hang of it!

It is NOT hard to learn, but you should really know a little theory too, it becomes a LOT easier if you know what to look for.

Also, Instructables and Pinterest will give you a load of links to find info...

You definitely can do it yourself from the net, but it would be really fast to get to the basics if you have an instructor there...

cheers,

thjakits

Jman6631 · 06-17-2016, 01:32 PM

Thanks! No crush at all. I did take a basic weekender class and did reasonably well but freely acknowledge my lack of knowledge and skill, hence my post here. The instructor did say I had the best beads in the class and from the look of it anyway I do think I did reasonably well.

In training we used nice argon Miller's, naturally, and I'm using an admittedly cheap gas-less mig at home.

I've seen some videos online and will check out the sources you cite, but I do believe I have at least a decent hand, what I definitely need is a decent rig that is powerful enough.

Could you be more specific about what looks questionable on the pics I posted? Also, for the corrosion protection I will paint and seal all of these welds (not to mention practically every other piece of metal and wood on the bus!).

It's already recommend that I dump this mig and go stick. What do you think?

ol trunt · 06-17-2016, 02:30 PM

Find a good used Miller or Lincoln wire welder with gas shielding. Stay away from the Chinese knock offs. If the mig won't handle .035 wire it probably isn't big enough (amps) to trust for structural welding. Also, spray weld through primer on the joints before you weld. This is particularly necessary when welding sheet metal. Go to a local welding shop, helmet and gloves in hand, and beg to watch and ask questions etc. Sometimes a 12 pack of GOOD beer helps.

As was recommended above, get in some more practice with a better mig before you weld your bus.

One last thing, only a very skilled welder can get away, with using a stick welder on the light weight steel used on our buses. Sticks are really great for thicker material (1/8" or more), but are too hot (localized amps) to do anything but blow holes in lighter material. Hope this helps. Jack

EastCoastCB · 06-17-2016, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ol trunt

Find a good used Miller or Lincoln wire welder with gas shielding. Stay away from the Chinese knock offs. If the mig won't handle .035 wire it probably isn't big enough (amps) to trust for structural welding. Also, spray weld through primer on the joints before you weld. This is particularly necessary when welding sheet metal. Go to a local welding shop, helmet and gloves in hand, and beg to watch and ask questions etc. Sometimes a 12 pack of GOOD beer helps.

As was recommended above, get in some more practice with a better mig before you weld your bus.

One last thing, only a very skilled welder can get away, with using a stick welder on the light weight steel used on our buses. Sticks are really great for thicker material (1/8" or more), but are too hot (localized amps) to do anything but blow holes in lighter material. Hope this helps. Jack

Very good advice and post, sir!

thjakits · 06-17-2016, 04:11 PM

Jman,

it might just be your lack of experience with this machine - it might also be a wrong or expired wire (and/or core) and it might be that your welder is no good!!
OR all 3!

Sometimes you get away with a "good" cheap China job, but mostly - not.

As mentioned, if you can afford it go Lincoln or Miller and gas shielded.

Core wire is either a "cheap" solution or a specialized application....

A GOOD stick-welder is always good to have, but you then need the GOOD sticks too! Generally you can do about any&all welds you need around a bus with a stick, but many DO get tricky! A Stick welder capable of doing any&all is also not cheap anymore!
If you are limited to ONE GOOD welder for BUS work - get GOOD Gas Mig!!

Miller or Lincoln depending on your local support - if you are in for the long run on doing stuff at home, get rather a used bigger machine than a new basic one - eventually it pays off!!

You asked what's wrong on your welds - usually MIG beads should not have ANY scale or inclusions (Bad beads are just not penetrating well, but no "dirt" around). With your welds it seems the core did not evaporate correctly and left a load of dirt all over the place (in the beads and on them) - impossible to clean up. Painting won't help as the corrosion will happen within the bead and the "dirt". Remember with gas-less core wire, the core is just a different method to produce the protecting gas cover, which mostly doesn't work as advertised....

I don't know how you welded and how it sounded, but IF it was continous and sounded "smooth" - it was wrong. MIG is a sequence of melted on wire drops.
arc - wire tip melts off and interrupts the arc - wire feeds out and strikes another arc close to the material - wire tip melts off and interrupts the arc - ....you get the idea! It is NOT like a stick or TIG.....

On thin material it is great, because there is a lot of cooling between the drops and you can easily just "spot mig" .....

Anyway - you got the virus, go for it!!

thjakits

Jolly Roger · 06-17-2016, 06:45 PM

A little more advice if I may.
You might be having some problems with your test pieces because the 1/4" angle iron is to thick for your machine even turned all the way up.
If I remember right you bought that machine to weld the ribs for your roof raise and the rib metal is I am guessing 10-guage at its thickest and your machine will do that just fine.
I can only reccomend that you practice with that thickness of metal and after comfortable move to welding in the position that you will be in with your roof raise

Tango · 06-17-2016, 07:55 PM

I'm with the gas shielded crowd. Flux core sux. Smelly, smokey and spattery. I have two Miller 140 gas shielded welders and love them both. One is a dual amperage (110/240). The Chinese cheapos are pure caca. These days you can get a gas shielded Hobart for about $600 bucks that is an awesome little machine and worth twice the money. Hobart is the Miller "Value Line" and they are very well made. The only drawback used to be that some parts on the Hobart were plastic (like the drive wheel) where the Millers were metal. That changed a couple of years ago making the Hobart just about equal to the Miller.

And yes...get someone (either a trade school teacher or a real welder) to spend a half hour with you and you will be able to handle most anything. I call'em "Monkey Welders"...they are THAT easy to learn and use.

Jman6631 · 06-18-2016, 08:07 AM

Wow, thank you ALL for the very valuable input. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Some of it seems to conflict a little bit at least in my head. There is some consistency in going gas mig vs. stick, but I'm still thinking stick? I like no gas (budget), plus they seem strong enough to do the heaviest welding I'll do.

Beyond the ribs which the little cheapo gas-less mig I have apparently will handle, I am planning on building the storage boxes and potable and gray water tanks frames under the deck and that's where I thought I'd use the heavier steel. I've seen guys use bed frame steel in a lot of locations which I have accumulated a pile of, but I also picked up some used 1/4" angle as well since I'm not sure if the bed frame steel will be heavy enough for those boxes.

Maybe I should just turn this whole question around and look at it from the requirements angle?

What is the heaviest steel required by the project? I thought the 1/4" angle could possibly be more than I'd need anywhere, including the new window openings and the angled structural support I'll put throughout the walls and roof. Or not? Is that a wrong assumption? Is 1/4" required or is it overkill? Can I get away with something thinner in these applications?

So, back to the right machine choice, it sounds like the cheapo gas-less mig I have will have it's place when it comes to the thinner material, but on the structural pieces I'll still need a stick or gas mig. Again, I'm still leaning towards a stick welder since it is gas-less and would be strong enough, but I can be talked out of that.

Jman6631 · 06-18-2016, 08:17 AM

thjakits - The "sound" of those test welds was not clean, it was stuttering spattering and not smooth, but once I slowed down and was starting to control the bubble a little better it seemed to smooth out. What I have no idea of is the penetration. I cut them open and just couldn't tell.

thjakits · 06-18-2016, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jman6631

thjakits - The "sound" of those test welds was not clean, it was stuttering spattering and not smooth, but once I slowed down and was starting to control the bubble a little better it seemed to smooth out. What I have no idea of is the penetration. I cut them open and just couldn't tell.

....what un-initiated weldor (?) does not know about is the sound of MIG, when it works as INTENDED!! It is NOT a continuous arc like with stick or TIG, but a serious of starts and interruptions when the wire melts and "drops" into the weld. IF you have a continuous contact it will also melt the wire but things are going way too fast and you will not get the penetration you need - this sounds smoother as there is no cut and "re-strike" - which sounds like bacon!

Mind you - this is with the regualr gas ones!! With a core-wire I think all bets are off!

Your concern about price - I think, you just should bite the lime and buy yourself a used, but good Gas-MIG. Gas is the least of the expenses!!
CORE-wire is a LOT more expensive than regular Mig-wire. Talk to a welding shop, maybe they have a old medium rig for sale (even ask your Lincoln or Miller distributor - though they will not have used ones - maybe some industrial size ones

!! BUT they have a long client list and might be able ot guide to a shop that recently upgraded equipment. I am sure they would tell you as you are potential future customer!

As mentioned before - stick works, but for THIN stuff, stick is no less expensive than a MIG and a lot harder to master!!

Nowadays Stick seems to have dropped and gained a "Cheap Spark Box" reputation - there is still a whole industry very dependent on stick!! You get all kinds of sticks and you can run all kinds of currents, BUT that requires quite a sophisticated "spark box" = NOT cheap!

IN ANY CASE - IF you insist on a stick, then get yourself an INVERTER_STICK-BOX!! They use WAY less electricity, are light (you can carry them to the work up a ladder if you need), and can be converted (..usually) to TIG!! The ONLY "detriment" you won't be able to TIG Aluminium with them, as you need AC for that adn the Inverters usually run DC.....but I bet they help a LOT welding thin stuff!! THey also do 110/220 V..... The Miller one I have is the Maxstar 150 STL - check it out on their website!!

Look at it from this angle; You CAN try to muck around with the cheap stuff, but to 99% probability you will waste TIME (...and TIME is money!!), by having to grind out your weld and repeat, waste MONEY on buying new wire and most likely repeat until find out your box is no good and buy the GOOD one anyway!!

So get the good one right away, get NEW wire or sticks and practice until your welds are clean all the way through!! The parts you have you can cut into a million pieces and weld them back up!
Once you get a decent bead with 6011 or 6013 electrodes (sticks) - consider to use 7018 on your bus - they are about twice the price with limited shelf-life, but weld extremely well, there is not enough weld on the whole bus to drive you into poverty with the 7018s....

But - look around, you might get lucky and get a decent used "above basic" Miller or Lincoln Gas-Mig for the price of a new inverter....

'nough said!

Cheers,

thjakits

Jman6631 · 06-18-2016, 03:57 PM

thjakits, very, very appreciated! Thank you for taking all that time and for giving it to me straight.

And of course you're right about the approach of getting the right gear the first time already. I dropped fifty clams opportunistically on the cheapo H.F. gas-less mig knowing I was bottom feeding. I can say for sure that I already can tell a difference in the one I have vs. the nice Miller machines we used in the weekend warrior class. It's very obvious, even to me.

I'm convinced now that a decent gas mig rig is the right choice. I've found several nice ones on craigslist in the $500 range, but, I also have a huge Lowes gift card that will cover most if not all of the cost of a new welder, so the project budget doesn't take a huge hit in buying new. This is the one I'm eyeing:

Shop Lincoln Electric 120-Volt MIG Flux-Cored Wire Feed Welder at Lowes.com

Or this one, the obvious cheaper knock-off:

http://www.lowes.com/pd/Smarter-Tool...der/1000017623

Reviews are pretty good and it comes with the regulator. All I'd have to get is the gas bottle. Then I can resell the H.F. one and recoup a little of the cost.

EastCoastCB · 06-18-2016, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jman6631

thjakits, very, very appreciated! Thank you for taking all that time and for giving it to me straight.

And of course you're right about the approach of getting the right gear the first time already. I dropped fifty clams opportunistically on the cheapo H.F. gas-less mig knowing I was bottom feeding. I can say for sure that I already can tell a difference in the one I have vs. the nice Miller machines we used in the weekend warrior class. It's very obvious, even to me.

I'm convinced now that a decent gas mig rig is the right choice. I've found several nice ones on craigslist in the $500 range, but, I also have a huge Lowes gift card that will cover most if not all of the cost of a new welder, so the project budget doesn't take a huge hit in buying new. This is the one I'm eyeing:

Shop Lincoln Electric 120-Volt MIG Flux-Cored Wire Feed Welder at Lowes.com

Or this one, the obvious cheaper knock-off:

Shop Smarter Tools 120-Volt MIG Flux-Cored Wire Feed Welder at Lowes.com

Reviews are pretty good and it comes with the regulator. All I'd have to get is the gas bottle. Then I can resell the H.F. one and recoup a little of the cost.

Do yourself a favor and do what I did- get the Hobart 140. You won't be sorry. Its the best bargain mig out there for the money. Better than that Lincoln stuff at lowes.

Jman6631 · 06-18-2016, 04:54 PM

Oh definitely, I've read nothing but great reviews of the Hobart's and am convinced they'd be perfect for my needs, but, the budget has to be considered. If I can get a decent Lincoln at Lowes then the budget "saves" a bundle, e.g., the harsh reality of the dollars and sense that I can't avoid, unfortunately...

EastCoastCB · 06-18-2016, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jman6631

Oh definitely, I've read nothing but great reviews of the Hobart's and am convinced they'd be perfect for my needs, but, the budget has to be considered. If I can get a decent Lincoln at Lowes then the budget "saves" a bundle, e.g., the harsh reality of the dollars and sense that I can't avoid, unfortunately...

How much is the lincoln? I got the hobart for 500 and change, IIRC.

ol trunt · 06-18-2016, 05:14 PM

We just can't seem leave you alone-- so here goes.

Bed frame material is vert strong and will support quite a bit of weight if it is assembled with bolts and nuts or bucked rivets. It is not a satisfactory material if it is welded (unless done with an oven to control temps). The problem stems from the fact that bed frame material is highly crystaline in nature, almost like steel castings. Welding melts the crystals at the site of the weld and produces an interface between the welded and the unwelded portion which is subject to rapid fatigue and complete failure. Using welded bed frame material to support tanks of liquids or under floor compartments is not a safe practice.

Find a metal provider in your area and purchase mild steel materials of the appropriate shape and size and you will be good to go! Jack

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