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Old 07-31-2018, 06:06 AM   #41
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Good to hear you have some knowledgeable folks down there, be patient.
I had a thought that there just could be a voltage sensor relay in the starting circuit. This would sense lower voltage than required to start. When you hit the key to start, this sensor would be or stay open if you thereby disabling the starting of the engine. Protects the starter as mentioned earlier from burning out and preserves the batteries with what power they already have.
Not 100% sure about this on your bus but entirely possible.
Will it start with a boost? If so you likely need new batteries, 12v readings won't cut it.



John

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Old 07-31-2018, 06:16 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wkheathjr View Post
... 12.2v battery life from both batteries.
One of my ongoing missions in life is to educate folks about battery voltage....

It is important to understand that voltage is a horrible indicator of state of charge (SOC). It is only 'sorta' accurate after the battery has been resting (open circuit) for many hours (many manufacturers say 24 hours).

Additionally, depending on the type of "12 volt battery", 12.2 volts is not fully charged. It is close to 50% charged which is the point that you should not let them fall below. A healthy, 12V, lead-acid battery at 100% SOC should register around 12.7 volts. Of course, a reasonably accurate meter is required - as is the resting period mentioned above. https://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-s...y-maintenance/

A far better/more accurate approach is to test the specific gravity of the electrolyte.

With all that said and assuming your meter is accurate, I'd guess you are dealing with very unhealthy batteries or they are mostly discharged (in spite of being on a charger).
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Old 07-31-2018, 08:20 AM   #43
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BlackJohn, your comment about voltage sensor preventing the bus from responding if/when the battery is under certain voltage level would make sense as to why the bus is not responding when ignition is on but still get the light at headlight and interior.

JDOnTheGo, thanks for the reply and for the link.
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Old 08-01-2018, 04:10 PM   #44
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So $192 damages to the wallet and 2 new batteries, kinda similar result but somehow improved. The gauge still doesn't respond at all, but when I tried to crank the bus, I can feel motor turning.. just not firing up. I tried to crank it 3-4 times no more than 2 seconds each tries. No luck.

And oddly, after I turn the ignition off and pulled key out, the LED lights on panel is still on? That seems unusual?




Also, with ignition on 'ON', the bus door doesn't close or open. It is electric door so it open/close using the switch. It is supposed to work after the gauge respond when turning ignition on.

I'm calling bus garage tomorrow to see if they might have any tip what to look for in case they are familiar with known issue with this bus.

and yes, the new batteries has same 950CCA as the old one. The store tested old one and said it kinda do need replacing, which is recommended.
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Old 08-01-2018, 05:22 PM   #45
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So new batteries has helped some I see.


The engine cranks but doesn't fire. I assume you are waiting for the wait to start time before cranking it over? if not turn key on and wait bout 20 seconds before cranking, maybe longer, not sure of your bus but all cold diesels have this procedure to do.




With no start how can the guages read anything?


About the lights on the panel being on, I would say a relay isn't operating to shut them off when you kill the ignition. Now which relay that might be I can't determine from here. Your pics tell nothing without a legend.


What are those 3 relays below the right hand panel? I can't blow the pic up to read what they say.


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Old 08-01-2018, 06:38 PM   #46
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John,
Thanks for quick reply.. I wasn't expecting it.. Yes I did waited that long before starting.. no luck. Diesel takes a while to start. As I said, the gauge on the dashboard usually response and wait a while before you start the engine. No response from gauge means something is wrong or disabled. Here is the legend.



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Old 08-01-2018, 08:10 PM   #47
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Not making much sense even with the legend.
Now I'm thinking ignition switch is failing or badly connected.


Again, what are the 3 relays below the right panel? There is nothing in what you showed to show the starting relay. If it turns over it must be good but where is it? One of those 3?


You better get in the shop and have them diagnose, or start by pulling ign switch out to test and check connector. Sometimes they just get greasy yucky in the back of them.

Where are all those smart people you know, get them at it.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:35 AM   #48
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Well, nothing has been done to the bus since my last post concerning it not starting. There has been much of rain and on a nice day heat is just unbearable so I worked on my other project, trying to get my 1979 Honda CX500 Custom running.



New shoes..


Gonna install wheels back on today after changing out bearings and get them set up. Next week, carb goes in, new battery, new throttle cables then fire it up. Depending on when packages for these parts arrive.

Anyway, my mother called her friend who used to work with my father at school bus garage and he is retired. He replied saying that he has no desire to work on any bus again, ever. I can understand his feeling and no worry but for my mother she took it a little personally because she helped him acquired a piece of property.. so I guess she felt he could have at least help a bit. Anyway.. my father finally was able to make it a point to come out and look at the bus. upon his observation he felt I got a lot more than what I paid for. Who knew the bus had traction control? He said none of the school bus he worked on had a chrome bracket supporting the mirror or a heated mirror. None of the NC School bus has a heater system you plug in to keep it warm in the winter. He was appalled it had a CAT engine and he loves CAT. We hooked the battery up and he cranked the bus. He said that the engine is turning real fast that the battery has good power to make it go fast. He has few theories what could be preventing it from starting. Maybe there is a leak in fuel line that he will inspect. Or maybe the solenoid is bad that it is preventing gauge from moving when ignition is on and that it could be why the fuel pump is not getting diesel to engine? But because of the heat we will wait until it is cool to troubleshoot so for now my duty is to get engine cover off so it will be ready when he comes back to have a look at it.

So that's the latest update and it is supposed to be in mid 80's on Monday and Tuesday next week. Maybe he will feel ok to come and look at it.
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:13 AM   #49
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Wkheathjr,

I believe that I experienced the same problem. When you turn the key to the on, not start position are you getting any indications of the wait to start or warming up Glow plugs.

I have a 2002 Thomas and when this happened to me it drove me crazy to the point of scrapping the bus and curling up in a corner and pouting.

Inside the Electrical compartment under the Drivers window (My Bus) don't know where yours is. There are two Solenoids, one is called "Body" and the other is called "Chassis".

The purpose of those are when the key is in the on position Voltage is transferred thru them to the various parts of the vehicle. Body solenoid is for all the accessories and lights, and the Chassis is for all things related to starting the Bus i.e. ECU, Glow plugs, Intake heater and initial ECU Diagnostics.

Check to see if when your key is in the on position that you have voltage between the two large posts on the solenoids, if not check to see if you have 12 volts to the center post when key is in on position. If you have 12 volts to the center post and nothing on the outlet of the solenoid then you have a bad solenoid. Also you should have continuous 12 volts to the inlet of the solenoid and if not trace down stream and check for fuses.

Here is a picture of what I hade to replace. Amazon $55.00 bucks.

White Rogers 100 Amp Continuous Duty 3 post Solenoid

Dan
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:20 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wkheathjr View Post
Well, nothing has been done to the bus since my last post concerning it not starting. There has been much of rain and on a nice day heat is just unbearable so I worked on my other project, trying to get my 1979 Honda CX500 Custom running.



New shoes..


Gonna install wheels back on today after changing out bearings and get them set up. Next week, carb goes in, new battery, new throttle cables then fire it up. Depending on when packages for these parts arrive.

Anyway, my mother called her friend who used to work with my father at school bus garage and he is retired. He replied saying that he has no desire to work on any bus again, ever. I can understand his feeling and no worry but for my mother she took it a little personally because she helped him acquired a piece of property.. so I guess she felt he could have at least help a bit. Anyway.. my father finally was able to make it a point to come out and look at the bus. upon his observation he felt I got a lot more than what I paid for. Who knew the bus had traction control? He said none of the school bus he worked on had a chrome bracket supporting the mirror or a heated mirror. None of the NC School bus has a heater system you plug in to keep it warm in the winter. He was appalled it had a CAT engine and he loves CAT. We hooked the battery up and he cranked the bus. He said that the engine is turning real fast that the battery has good power to make it go fast. He has few theories what could be preventing it from starting. Maybe there is a leak in fuel line that he will inspect. Or maybe the solenoid is bad that it is preventing gauge from moving when ignition is on and that it could be why the fuel pump is not getting diesel to engine? But because of the heat we will wait until it is cool to troubleshoot so for now my duty is to get engine cover off so it will be ready when he comes back to have a look at it.

So that's the latest update and it is supposed to be in mid 80's on Monday and Tuesday next week. Maybe he will feel ok to come and look at it.
Cats are good engines. But the C7 isn't very loved. Probably why he was appalled. One of my in-laws is the foreman at a diesel yard and he isn't a fan of them, fwiw.

Best of luck to you, man. Its good you've got some help. Stay positive and eventually you'll get this sorted out!

If you can, get a big shop fan and put it in an open door. That helps out a lot in a hot bus while you're working.
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:22 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagNasty View Post
Wkheathjr,

I believe that I experienced the same problem. When you turn the key to the on, not start position are you getting any indications of the wait to start or warming up Glow plugs.

I have a 2002 Thomas and when this happened to me it drove me crazy to the point of scrapping the bus and curling up in a corner and pouting.

Inside the Electrical compartment under the Drivers window (My Bus) don't know where yours is. There are two Solenoids, one is called "Body" and the other is called "Chassis".

The purpose of those are when the key is in the on position Voltage is transferred thru them to the various parts of the vehicle. Body solenoid is for all the accessories and lights, and the Chassis is for all things related to starting the Bus i.e. ECU, Glow plugs, Intake heater and initial ECU Diagnostics.

Check to see if when your key is in the on position that you have voltage between the two large posts on the solenoids, if not check to see if you have 12 volts to the center post when key is in on position. If you have 12 volts to the center post and nothing on the outlet of the solenoid then you have a bad solenoid. Also you should have continuous 12 volts to the inlet of the solenoid and if not trace down stream and check for fuses.

Here is a picture of what I hade to replace. Amazon $55.00 bucks.

White Rogers 100 Amp Continuous Duty 3 post Solenoid

Dan
Hi Dan, that's awesome information and that will help a lot to know where to start. I'll try to tackle this without help of my dad because his health is actual bad. He has some good days but many bad days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Cats are good engines. But the C7 isn't very loved. Probably why he was appalled. One of my in-laws is the foreman at a diesel yard and he isn't a fan of them, fwiw.

Best of luck to you, man. Its good you've got some help. Stay positive and eventually you'll get this sorted out!

If you can, get a big shop fan and put it in an open door. That helps out a lot in a hot bus while you're working.
ECcb, yes I read about C7 as new generation of CAT engine with promised future but most of them had some unfortunate case. My dad is huge fan of CAT and none of NC School bus he worked on carry CAT engine, which is weird because CAT manufacturer is 40 minutes from where we live (Clayton, NC) and only 3 hours from High Point NC where Thomas is built. He has worked on International, Cumming, Ford, and Chevrolet engine. My uncle was in excavator and septic tank business he has few CAT excavators, bulldozers and backhoes and guess who fix them for my uncle?

I had a copy of maintenance report and two reports showed that bus has had leaf spring serviced by the dealer that sold bus to public school in OH. He pointed out to me that this will be common problem I should always keep a close eye on leaf springs on the front end because the CAT engine is very heavy it can break leaf springs.

And I live in Medellin in Colombia part time of the year.. it is city of Eternal Spring climate- always 70's year round with no more than 30% humid. As of now, summer in NC is hot and humid is pretty high over 30% so for me it is just unbearable. Fan would have not make any difference if the humid is up there. ha! I usually wait until after 5pm to do any work outside, and that is why I wanted to move my bus over from my property to my mother's so it will be right there when I am ready to work on it. ha!
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:38 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wkheathjr View Post
Hi Dan, that's awesome information and that will help a lot to know where to start. I'll try to tackle this without help of my dad because his health is actual bad. He has some good days but many bad days.



ECcb, yes I read about C7 as new generation of CAT engine with promised future but most of them had some unfortunate case. My dad is huge fan of CAT and none of NC School bus he worked on carry CAT engine, which is weird because CAT manufacturer is 40 minutes from where we live (Clayton, NC) and only 3 hours from High Point NC where Thomas is built. He has worked on International, Cumming, Ford, and Chevrolet engine. My uncle was in excavator and septic tank business he has few CAT excavators, bulldozers and backhoes and guess who fix them for my uncle?

I had a copy of maintenance report and two reports showed that bus has had leaf spring serviced by the dealer that sold bus to public school in OH. He pointed out to me that this will be common problem I should always keep a close eye on leaf springs on the front end because the CAT engine is very heavy it can break leaf springs.

And I live in Medellin in Colombia part time of the year.. it is city of Eternal Spring climate- always 70's year round with no more than 30% humid. As of now, summer in NC is hot and humid is pretty high over 30% so for me it is just unbearable. Fan would have not make any difference if the humid is up there. ha! I usually wait until after 5pm to do any work outside, and that is why I wanted to move my bus over from my property to my mother's so it will be right there when I am ready to work on it. ha!
My mom used to vacation in Bogata every summer.
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Old 12-18-2018, 09:51 AM   #53
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No update with the bus. It has been neglected thanks to unexpectedly guest Hurricane Florence that rudely interrupted my planning for my Colombian girlfriend who came up just right after the Hurricane. It was difficult trying to calm her down assuring her that all would be OK when she gets here. None was done during her one month visit as we spent time traveling on my new to me motorcycle I bought in August for our traveling plan doing the Blue Ridge Parkway, visit few battlefields in MD/PA, DC for few days Myrtle Beach for few nights before getting to home. Repaired hurricane damages at my rental house (finishing up today!!) then heading to the beach house and do interior works as they will start roof work today. Been crazy!

Anyway, I am heading to Colombian Jan 3 and am concerned about winterizing the bus. The bus isn't starting despite new battery and I still haven't had a chance to troubleshoot it. I am not sure if the heater will still work if the solenoid is bad or whatever it is that is preventing bus from starting? I bought Power Service Diesel additive to prevent gelling and I am going to put it in the fuel tank today. Any tip will be appreciated. Thanks!
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:44 AM   #54
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So it turns over but doesn’t fire? Can you smell diesel in the exhaust pipe when it’s turning over?Most likely I’d a diesel isn’t firing its because of air in the fuel
Lines. Carefully snuggling up the fittings and look for weeping on any fuel hose could indicate cracks. Wee little cracks will suck in just enough air to break Prime.
Now with that said, caution caution using starting fluid designed for Diesel engines is still not always safe- a wee small toot of the stuff into the air intake is sufficient. Too much and you can screw up the rings and cylinders walls destroying an engine. Spray a 1 second toot I to the top of the engine intake while turning over. That stuff will dry out the cylinder and seize it if you over do it. If it fires and runs then when it’s running let it idle up- don’t goose it! Also check the booster pump normally on the fuel
Pump or very close to it- international engines have a rock filter that for decades most dealerships never check. It’s little and will
Stop fuel flow. Once it’s started then look for wet spots along the fuel
Line all the way to the tank- Btw some fuel tank pick up tubes break off I. The tank and the air gets in when the tank is half full. So fill the tank before pulling your hair out. If it gets to that point.
New filters and check the fuel water separator filling the filters with clean fuel when reinstalling them. Pump the primer pump (little hand flipper thing or plunger pump). Diesels are pretty bullet proof once they have clean fuel / air flow and no air leaks in the fuel
Lines.


Cheers!
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Old 12-25-2018, 03:01 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wkheathjr View Post
Well, nothing has been done to the bus since my last post concerning it not starting. There has been much of rain and on a nice day heat is just unbearable so I worked on my other project, trying to get my 1979 Honda CX500 Custom running.



New shoes..


Gonna install wheels back on today after changing out bearings and get them set up. Next week, carb goes in, new battery, new throttle cables then fire it up. Depending on when packages for these parts arrive.

Anyway, my mother called her friend who used to work with my father at school bus garage and he is retired. He replied saying that he has no desire to work on any bus again, ever. I can understand his feeling and no worry but for my mother she took it a little personally because she helped him acquired a piece of property.. so I guess she felt he could have at least help a bit. Anyway.. my father finally was able to make it a point to come out and look at the bus. upon his observation he felt I got a lot more than what I paid for. Who knew the bus had traction control? He said none of the school bus he worked on had a chrome bracket supporting the mirror or a heated mirror. None of the NC School bus has a heater system you plug in to keep it warm in the winter. He was appalled it had a CAT engine and he loves CAT. We hooked the battery up and he cranked the bus. He said that the engine is turning real fast that the battery has good power to make it go fast. He has few theories what could be preventing it from starting. Maybe there is a leak in fuel line that he will inspect. Or maybe the solenoid is bad that it is preventing gauge from moving when ignition is on and that it could be why the fuel pump is not getting diesel to engine? But because of the heat we will wait until it is cool to troubleshoot so for now my duty is to get engine cover off so it will be ready when he comes back to have a look at it.

So that's the latest update and it is supposed to be in mid 80's on Monday and Tuesday next week. Maybe he will feel ok to come and look at it.
My understanding is Thomas offered the ESC as an option in 2015 and is now standard equipment on them. Never seen it on a bus as old as yours. Cool bike adventure I'd still like to take.
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Old 12-25-2018, 03:48 PM   #56
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Don't use either/starting fluid.
A squirt bottle of gasoline will do the same trick.
Both are dangerous with warm up plugs,grid heaters etc.. But the gas is a lot softer drug for a diesel.
Sounds like it just lost prime from a leak somewhere.
Pressurize the tank with an air compressor or if available a nitrogen bottle with a rag wrapped around the hose to force the fuel up and look for leaks while doing that or just start to start the dang thing and look for fuel leaks while your trying or while it's running.
Since you bought a bus with a diesel it almost seems like you should have been around DAD a little more to pick up some knowledge?
I wish I had my DAD around for knowledge
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:11 PM   #57
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Join Date: May 2018
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Posts: 39
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Engine: CAT C7202
Countdown has begun for me. I am returning back to USA April 4th, and I am highly motivated to work on my bus project. Beside the bus project, I have few projects. 2) Tearing down poultry house and build two buildings re-using good lumbers. There are already two concrete pads so one is big enough to be a shop and other one as storage. 3) Install metal roof over my rental mobile home (really necessary).

But with downtime now here in Medellin in Colombia South America. I was writing few blog entry so I don't lose track of what I did to my bus. Well, I studied two photo and realized that I may find the problem why my bus didn't start after putting down new batteries. In first photo is the set-up with new battery but if you look at second/third photo, which is what it looked like before I disconnected everything and put new battery down.






Notice how I forgot to reconnect small wires back to the battery? What's the chance this is why bus didn't start?? Now where is the smiles with hand over the face? That is how I feel but at same time getting my hope high hoping this is just a simple problem why bus didn't start.. except that I may have a bigger problem. There were few freezing temperature and I am uncertain if the heater work and if the diesel in fuel line, fuel filters, and etc may gel up??

We will see..
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Old 04-13-2019, 09:45 AM   #58
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Well, got back to USA April 4.. but when I was in route to NC, my high school classmate passed away unexpectedly. Heart attack or aneurysm. 39 years old. Survived by barely teenager kids. Her mother passed away just about same age with aneurysm but honestly I suspect her stress leading to her death was caused by her abusive ex and she have to fight for her kids in the court 2-3 times a year every year.. Sad.

Anyway, a day after I got back to home I hooked two wires beside the positive and negative. No luck. bus doesn't start.

So next week, I started a day early dedicating to troubleshoot every electronic part that may cause bus not to start.

Connecting batteries and using multimeter, I checked volt from battery to 100amp fuse to the fuse box. All ok. I unplugged wires to the key ignition and checked the ignition. Ignition OK. I checked the power to each fuse box. There were two on the front and two in the back. Both ok. Fuse box #1, I unplugged first relay fuse and tested it. It was ok then when I plug it back in, I feel it clicking so I decided to test all fuse relay by unplugging and plug it to see if it is clicking. By the time I am ready for Fuse Box 2, I noticed LED lights weren't on. LED lights were on on Fuse Box 1 but not 2 so I assumed that I need to plug wires back into key ignition. Key ignition was already on "on" when I plug the wire back on it and the whole dashboard light up but gauge was responding weakly. Turned key off. Proceed to put ignition back into the position on the dashboard for better ground contact. Turned the key to 'On'. Gauge responding like it normally would. My buddy said he hears fuel injector humming. But it wouldn't start. Not a sound when I try to crank the bus.

Well out of blue, my buddy's son called him on video chat and they were talking about his grandkid. Then his son asked him what he was doing and he explained to his son we were trying to find out why bus wasn't starting. Then he explained what we have done so far.. but apparently all the time he was on phone with his son and me trying to unplug and plug fuse relay on Fuse Box 2, about 15-20 minutes has passed when I got back into the bus and turn the key.. suddenly the bus fire up and everything was running fine. My buddy's son heard the bus and asked my buddy if it was CAT engine? My buddy turned the cellular to the motor showing CAT logo. His son said it sounded like CAT engine and it sounded good. Turned out he is actually a truck mechanic and has worked on CAT, Mack, Kenworth, International, and etc. Then he explained that he thinks the problem is that I need to wait 20 minutes after connecting batteries before trying to start the bus.

So I think two things that was a problem before why the bus didn't start. Wire contact to key ignition may has been weak because after unplugging wire from the ignition to test ignition and plugging it back in the dashboard light up. And I wasn't aware I had to wait about 20 minutes allowing enough electric to get to the system before starting the bus.

I'm so thrilled it is working fine now.. without spending a dime to fix anything.. well I did spend $200 on two new batteries but that is expected and still a good investment.

I let the bus run for good 30 minutes before I moved it to one of my campground site next to a camper I bought for $700. Now the project will begin!



Now I am going to strip the skin on the interior and remove insulation. After I get done with this, I am going to see about floater in fuel tank. When I fill up diesel to full, fuel gauge is showing 3/4 full. I stopped 3 times to top the tank and remember it was about 20 gallons when I top it, but it still show 3/4 full. When I crawl under the bus to look at the fuel tank, it said it is 60 gallons?? So I am thinking of cutting a floor above the fuel tank and make a door so I can access to the tank from above to fix any issue. I'm open to suggestion/advice/tip for that.
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:51 PM   #59
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Welcome back.
There should already be an access cover in the floor over the tank.
Might have to pull the rubber or whatever you have hiding it.
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Old 04-13-2019, 03:38 PM   #60
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Welcome back.
There should already be an access cover in the floor over the tank.
Might have to pull the rubber or whatever you have hiding it.
That’s what I figured because I think I saw some lines under the rubber. Kinda gave me the idea to remove skins on interior first and then go from there.

And good to be home but miss my girlfriend.. can’t wait to find out on Monday if she is approved for vacation time to come to the states.
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