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Old 08-06-2009, 10:03 AM   #111
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Re: TygerCub's Project

I was under the impression that tyvek is a wind barrier that allows vapor to pass thru.

I think that I'd probably just caulk the existing floor with a high grade caulk and then install the subfloor, any fastener that you put thru the floor is going to compromise the vapor barrier and let moisture in between the flooring layers. either undercoat or sprayfoam the bottom of the floor after construction to seal everything.
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Old 08-06-2009, 12:16 PM   #112
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Re: TygerCub's Project

Looks good
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:39 PM   #113
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Re: TygerCub's Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul iossi
I was under the impression that tyvek is a wind barrier that allows vapor to pass thru.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

If I'm not mistaken, allowing some vapor to pass through is a good thing. Otherwise, any moisture that gets trapped by the barrier becomes a breeding ground for mold and mildew. While I eventually hope to move into dryer climates, right now (and probably for several years to come) I'm in the humid (OMG where's my gills?) southeast coastal region. Moisture from condensation might be an issue if I don't allow some vapor to escape.

So... keeping that in mind, I guess I just talked myself out of using the regular plastic and the pond liner. Classic "DOH!" moment there, eh?
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:17 PM   #114
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Re: TygerCub's Project

yer workin it!thats what i like to see and do but im sittin here on my comp wounded and going nuts.I think i know how Smitty feels.....nice work on the bus and tree trimmin!
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:22 PM   #115
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Re: TygerCub's Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by timbuk
im sittin here on my comp wounded and going nuts.
Uh oh, Timbuk! What happened???



Smitty,
I like all of your points about ventilation. I also agree with the idea of putting down the foam sheets and taping them for tightness. Having foam right next to the metal skin would regulate the temperature difference quite a bit. So... how 'bout this idea...

In order to reduce the amount of radiated heat coming up from a hot road, and cold from the frozen ground, what if I lay down some of the foil insulation first? That would supposedly give me a radiant barrier that would reflect adverse temperatures. That way, I wouldn't have to put as thick a piece of foam board on the floor, and could put a thicker piece of plywood.

Actually, I think I'll end up with a thick piece of foam and a thinner piece of plywood just because I like the idea of extra foam . Well... the insulation factor, plus the foam's cheaper than the wood... a key factor on my skimpy paycheck .
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:12 PM   #116
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Re: TygerCub's Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
if you use the ISO board you spoke of in an earlier post (known as R-Max to me), it is foil-faced....2 birds/1-stone.
You know Smitty, it's good someone is paying attention, 'cause I'm too broke even to do that (and I ain't necessarily talkin' money ).

Of course you're right about that. There's so much BS going on in my life right now, I'm just a little scattered. I need to slow down and review my notes and remember all the good stuff that's already been discussed. <sigh>

This bus is the only thing keeping me sane right now and I really don't wanna mess it up. I need to just sit back and chill, or it WILL happen.

I hear ya about the roof, windows and walls. I'm getting there, but want a solid foundation to stand on while tearing out the rest. I learned that lesson after taking out the driver's side wall panel, then having to step around it while trying to do all the other work (don't have anywhere to store the panels except inside the bus). It's back up out of the way for now, but once the plywood floor's down, I'll feel better about pulling out the rest of the interior panels.

Right now, I think I'm gonna just chill for a couple of days & get my head on straight.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:18 PM   #117
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Re: TygerCub's Project

Hey TC amen sista,

My bus has been keeping me from climbing a clock tower myself- except I'd just have to yell "bang you're dead" 'cause I can't afford any real bullets.

I'll give you an idea or two to think on. Since you are starting with bare metal, you've primed it and all. R-max is a good option, even the plastic wouldn't be a bad idea. Yes you'll be driving screws into it- you will be with anything you put down. What you could do after you get the pastic and ply down is use your leftover paint- hit all the screw heads- then go to foam, then finish floor.

Pretty much what I did- It had 1/2" ply so I left it in place. Nice thick coat of primer then laid the foam in... luan finish floor on that.
Best of luck, let me know if you want any advice on the woodworking part- that's my expertise. Take a day or two off, after a while you need it.
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:06 AM   #118
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Re: TygerCub's Project

Here is the truth concerning floors as I see it. You don't want to trap the moisture between the metal floor and anything. The moisture should be allowed to travel up and out. Plastic on top of metal is just wrong, for that reason. Foil between the metal and the floor is just wrong for that reason. People don't realize why the vinyl was laid down to begin with. It is to provide a non-slip surface for people to walk on and to keep water from going onto the plywood or metal when school bus drivers have to hose the actual puke and caca out of their bus when little Joe has his accident. Why in the world doesn't anyone on this board notice that no manufacturer has ever put a barrier between the wood and the metal. The manufacturers are not stupid, and they're not that stupid not do do it if within the realm of physics it were proper to do so. Does anyone have any idea how rusted a floor would be if water from a bus driver's hose got caught between a plastic barrier and the floor? Does anybody know that that is the reason you see rust at all? Does anybody know why bus floors are usually rusted at the sides and where the seat bolts go through? Well, it is because the side is where the water that doesn't run off the top(out the back door because most drivers park on a slope when hosing out their bus), runs out.

Now most skoolie people aren't going to be hosing out their bus every week, they have fancy floors to protect. The proper thing to do is lay 'red rosin' paper between the metal floor and the plywood. It is a hydro-absorbent paper that wicks moisture away from the metal and allows it to migrate in a timely manner through the wood floor and out, while providing a conduction barrier(insulation ya) between the metal floor and the plywood or unfaced insulation material. All builders of houses with metal roofs laid down directly onto plywood use this, so their fancy roofs won't rust out within a year. Sheet metal stored outside, one on top of the other will rust out this way also. Little do the people here know that if they put plastic between the metal floor and and their foam or plywood the only way that trapped moisture can escape is through the screws they fastened everything down with. I also note that it is proper to put pinholes in the foam, here and there, for the moisture to escape. And LOL I read here how they want to seal the tops of the screws.

Wick that moisture out T.C. and then you can reside in a non-stinky, mildew free castle on wheels. Here now I give you two proper formulas, which I may pull off the board if arguments ensue.
1) metal floor to red rosin paper to plywood.
2)metal floor to red rosin paper to non-faced foam to plywood.
Dang. Here is one more, I like;
3)metal floor to red rosin paper to salvaged one hundred year old oak flooring.
Oh yeah, one more;
4)metal floor to plywood.

Moisture is the enemy, be it in your socks or where the sun doesn't shine, unless you're in the desert or running a wood stove in the dry northern winter.

Remember the metal floor IS your moisture barrier FROM THE BOTTOM OUTSIDE.

All of the above is just my opinion. Only take advice from a communist with a 'license', because they have been anointed.

Funniest thing I ever saw was an old boy insulating the ceiling in his house in Port Aransas. The sapper used a vapor barrier pink in the ceiling . His A.C. had to run twice as long to give the same comfort level because he had trapped the moisture in the rooms. Plus after a while you could see the sheetrock tape letting loose on his ceiling. Being the stubborn type, he just got angry if you would bring it to his attention that he was an idiot.

Ok, I've said my piece concerning this topic, and T.C. , Ezbme and Smitty thank you for your kind words in my bus adventure post, they mean a lot to me.
Chris
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Old 08-07-2009, 05:34 AM   #119
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Re: TygerCub's Project

Hi... My name is TygerCub, and I'm... I'm a skoolie addict.

Okay, so I couldn't keep away.

Mightybus has a point about the way buses are built from the manufacturers. But so many of us find our floors rotted, that it's no wonder we try to improve on the original design. What >I< found was apparently odd in that I had no subfloor - just rubber mat glued to the metal. However, where there was glue, the floor was great. Any spot where the glue appeared to be missing, or was just too thin had developed rust. With that in mind (and four hours of sleep under my belt), I've decided to do the following:
  • Cover all the bolt holes left from the original bench seats. Stop moisture from entering that way.[/*:m:3vnaxoqr]
  • Put down some type of membrane for moisture control. Haven't a clue what it will be yet. Whether that's visqueen or red rosin paper, or something compatable, it has to be locally available. I'll just have to ask around at some of the mom & pop places as well as the big box stores.[/*:m:3vnaxoqr]
  • Lay down a layer of the foil faced polyisocyanurate sheeting. May have to do a second layer depending on the thickness I can find in this area.[/*:m:3vnaxoqr]
  • Top that with 23/32" tounge-in-groove subfloor plywood. As others have said, that's the foundation for construction.[/*:m:3vnaxoqr]
  • After I'm finished tearing out, insulating & paneling the roof and ceiling, I'll put a final covering over the plywood floor. Something pretty, but waterproof. I may or may not install the in-floor heating, depending on what I can afford at the time. Of course, by the time I reach that point, it may be winter and I'll make that decision based on cold feet! We'll see. [/*:m:3vnaxoqr]

Thanks for all the support guys. You're helping me a lot and keeping me on track. I appreciate it.
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Old 08-07-2009, 08:24 AM   #120
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Re: TygerCub's Project

I've been a builder for lots of years houses to hotels to dry cleaners to water parks and too tight always causes more problems than too loose. A bus camper has a lot going on in there, with little volume, as far as heat transfer, condensation, moisture build-up etc. and I'm not getting too anal trying to seal mine up like a Tupperware container. I'm perfectly content to let it breath.

Keep the moisture out of anyplace not ventilated enough to dissipate it before it causes grief and make sure the interior ventilates well enough to evacuate moisture laden air, it doesn't make too much sense to me sealing every last interior to exterior vapor channel only to have to run a fan or open a window when your cooking to keep the condensation from running down the walls. Anyone who has lived in a wood heated tent during the winter will understand what I'm talking about! Just my two cents

This kind of sounds like the drama folks go though insulating, if a little is good a lot must be better, but you get to the "Law of Diminishing Returns" at a certain point

Take Care,
Den
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