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Old 10-07-2016, 05:59 PM   #1
Skoolie
 
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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Year: 2000
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Wayward - 2000 Carpenter CT-2

So we are starting the build on our new bus! She's a 2000 Carpenter CT-2, T444E, 65k miles, 5 speed Spicer transmission. Bus was only used as a training vehicle for the drivers to learn stick. The clutch has been replaced once. Here is how it looked as of 4 or 5 days ago:

Emily sitting up front..


In all her glory.


I made the mistake of telling my insurance it would be used for conversion and they wouldn't even give me a temporary commercial policy on it. I drove it home without plates or insurance from Maryland to New York, about 250 miles, in 8 hours. There is a governor set to 55mph, although I suspect she has a bit more power left as I frequently hear the engine kicking out at highway speeds. I almost peed my pants when I found myself driving on a truck-prohibited highway ... I barely cleared a bridge that was 9'9" before I was able to get off. I did get home safely though.

We've started removing the seats, cleaning, and painting ... I will upload more pictures of the progress as soon as I'm physically at a computer. I was caught off guard when I saw this, though:



It's hard to see but I have no plywood underneath my floor. Zero. There is only one thin layer of floor and it looks like it's made of some type of resistant rubber or plastic. There is no metal. All of the builds I have seen had multiple layers to strip down before hitting bottom.

Here it is from the bottom:


Realistically, it should be easier because I have nothing to rust proof. We can start laying insulation as soon as we clear out the interior and patch the holes. Are there any drawbacks to this material?

Anway, we are taking a vacation at her summer cottage this weekend so won't complete anything else until next week.

Feedback is appreciated!!
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Old 10-07-2016, 06:22 PM   #2
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Can't beat that
Low miles?

I bought a motorcycle, well a trike that wss used for training. Vintage bike with under 3k miles, is why i ask.

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Old 10-07-2016, 06:53 PM   #3
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Warewolff be sure to check your rear gear ratio and tranny before governor adjustments.
Not trying to scare you but do your due diligence before you decide on how much to adjust your governor.
The most info. Needed Will come from your TACH. Reading's?
Others can/will correct me if I am wrong but on my build I need to add a tach. To figure out my motor to tranny to rear end before I can size my new rear gears from 6.50 to ? Without changing my governors that much because I think mine is happy where it's at so I need to help it out by changing other pieces to support it.
Just something to think about before you make a change?
Good luck.
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:16 PM   #4
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
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Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
plywood floors werent required in all states... and if this bus was biought as a training bus and not ever bought to run roiutes it very well may have been ordered without wood floors..

-Christopher
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:01 PM   #5
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carytowncat
Low miles?

I bought a motorcycle, well a trike that wss used for training. Vintage bike with under 3k miles, is why i ask.
Yes, 65k and about 2700 running hours with the maintenance logs to prove it. I really lucked out. Paid just over $2600 after the auction fee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
Warewolff be sure to check your rear gear ratio and tranny before governor adjustments.
Not trying to scare you but do your due diligence before you decide on how much to adjust your governor.
Jolly, I do have a tach on my model. The whole cluster was cutting out here and there as there is an electrical issue I have to track down but I don't believe I was much over 2kRPM's at 55. This is what I meant about "extra room" -- The engine would more or less cut out and stop accelerating multiple times once I hit 55. It would be especially nice to be able to accelerate down hills past 55. Do you know of a safe cruising RPM to shoot for on a T444E?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid
plywood floors werent required in all states... and if this bus was biought as a training bus and not ever bought to run roiutes it very well may have been ordered without wood floors..
Cadillac, will this be an issue for me? I intended to replace the plywood regardless, so the cost doesn't increase. The rubberized floor looks sturdy enough. Can you think of any drawbacks to this setup?
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:17 PM   #6
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
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Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I can think of a lot of reasons why your setup is better... that plywood on a lot of busses ends up harboring moisture and causes rust to the bottom metal... in your case yank the rubber, laydown insulation and wood and be fresh..

your cluster cuttng in and out is a very common issue with those clusters... I have 2 of them!.. I fixed the one in my first bus and will have to on my second.

if you reach behind the cluster when your gauges are frozen and press on the connectors gently it most likely comes back to life... the solder joints are notoriious for cracking... also the pins get corroded over time... you can pull that out easily on a carpenter (my 1991 is a carpenter).. and try cleaning the contacts on the plugs and on the wire harness (disco your battery or trip your main disconnect first if you have one).. .. if that doesnt work you can usually take a magnifier and see in the soder joints where the connectors go to the main circuit board that the joints are cracked.. a nice fine soldering iron and a teeny weeny bit of solder on each one fixes them nicely..

I did it to my carpenter and to a friend;s bus.. and my new bus I just got has the same issue so I'll soon be doing it to that bus too...

while you have the cluster out, relamp the back-lighting.. as they will start burning out here soon.. although yours is low hours it may not..

-Christopher
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Old 10-09-2016, 11:14 AM   #7
Skoolie
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
Warewolff be sure to check your rear gear ratio and tranny before governor adjustments.
Not trying to scare you but do your due diligence before you decide on how much to adjust your governor.
The most info. Needed Will come from your TACH. Reading's?
Others can/will correct me if I am wrong but on my build I need to add a tach. To figure out my motor to tranny to rear end before I can size my new rear gears from 6.50 to ? Without changing my governors that much because I think mine is happy where it's at so I need to help it out by changing other pieces to support it.
Just something to think about before you make a change?
Good luck.
Where should my engine be sitting happy? I think I averaged ~2200rpm at 55 although I'll have to double check. Additionally my temps stayed low through the whole trip..
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Old 10-09-2016, 12:01 PM   #8
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 3,096
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
2200 at 55 is standard.. i dont know what tires you have but on my carpenter I have 4.78 gears and with 11R22.5 tires i take about 2200 on average...

the T-444E has its maximum TQ / HP output at 2300 RPM but can be run safely up to 2700 (where msot factory RPM governors are set)
-Christopher
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Old 10-11-2016, 10:30 PM   #9
Skoolie
 
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 119
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Got all the seats out today! I started with the angle grinder a few days ago but because the frame has no rust at all we were able to get them all out fairly easily with an impact gun and an extra socket holding the nuts from underneath. On our Carpenter we used a 1/2" socket for the majority of the bolt heads/nuts and a 9/16" on a few of the bigger ones.

The impact driver from our new Milwaukee set:


Before:


After:


The pile of seats posted to the free section of Craigslist for scrap:


Sweeping up:


Emily pretending to work:


Turns out I was mistaken about the floor. It is metal, but coated with rubber. The rubber is held down by the walkway in the middle, of which we've already stripped a few screw heads, and additionally by a panel that runs along the edge of either wall. We'll be taking those off shortly as well. Hoping to finish stripping the inside and complete painting by the end of the week.

Question: In the "After" photo there's a heater behind the wheel well on the left side. We are going to be heating via a vented catalytic system with two 20# propane tanks that will be stored in the garage area. All fully ventilated. I think I'm going to scrap the stock heater. Thoughts on this?

Also, I took the measurements today. Bus is 27'6" from the back of the drivers seat to the emergency exit and 7'6" from wall to wall. 6'3" in the middle and 5'4" if you are standing right next to the window.

My back is sore from carrying all those seats away. They must be 50 pounds a piece. We'll update again by the end of the week after we complete some more work!
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Old 10-13-2016, 08:08 PM   #10
Skoolie
 
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 119
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
Got rid of the seats today -- someone came by and picked it up for scrap. I started power washing to prepare for paint but got rained out. Then decided I'd repair my intermittent instrument cluster and couldn't figure out how to get the main board out.

I figure if this is as common an issue as I hear then I'd better start a new thread.

Repairing my International instrument cluster

Maybe one of you who has already done this can read my post on it / check out the photos and point me in the right direction?

Thanks...
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