30 Amp / 50 Amp

[gbstewart]

wired my bus with 30 amp, for us I think its lots of power. 30 amps is plenty unless your running 3 or 4 aircondtioners, and a hot tub. also most of the parks that I have been to had 30 amp plugs, and most generators are 30 amps., I havent seen any 50 amp plugs yet at the parks that I have been to.

just my 3 cents worth
gbstewart

[Diesel Dan]

You can wire for either one or both, depending on how much power you think you will need. You can also get adapters so if you wire for 50A, you can still use a 30A or 20A/15A adapter if that is all that is available at a particular campground. Same thing if you build to 30A but get an adapter for a 50A plug, you can plug into a 50A receptacle and only pull 30A out of it. Just have a 30A breaker so that if you start to pull more than your system allows it will just trip the breaker. The adapter approach would seem to me to be the plan that would give you the most flexibility. I wired mine to have the potential to plug into 2 seperate 30A circuits for a total of 60A (across two distribution boxes) if I have the opportunity to do so; or a 30A and a 20A for a total of 50A, etc. The thing is, 50A extension cords are pricey. I happened to get a good deal on two used 30A cords, so that works out well for me. So the way mine is set up, I can harness 60A total, but still not have to buy any wiring beyond 30A capacity.

[bus-bro]

Though I'm not planning to use a 50 amp service, I'm wiring from the inlet to the panel for it. Not that much more expensive, and cheaper than a re-do. 30 amp service = 3600 watts, a 50 amp service = 12,000 watts.

[lornaschinske]

We have run into several parks with 50amp service. It usually costs more. Most public campgrounds tend to be wired 15/20/30 amp. Private parks get into 50 amps. So do mobile home parks. I have heard of some public parks "upgrading" their electrical systems and installing 50 amp. We've been staying in public campgrounds since 1979.

In our RV, we have 30 amp and we also have 30 amp to 50 amp adapters that we use if we can only plug into 50 amp. We will wire the bus for 30 amp and use the 50 amp adapters if need be. Back during the summer, some idiot plugged into the 50 amp and overloaded the (private) campground. We all lost power. They were there overnight so it didn't impact them too badly, they left out. Guess they had to run their 4 A/C units. Might not of had to have that many A/C units if their RV wasn't BLACK!!!! Morons! We had to have the 50 amp in TX at the two private parks we stayed at. One was a mobile home park and the only plug in the box was 50 amp.

A lesson was learned... just because a park has 50 amp doesn't mean they can handle too many folks using 50 amp!

[timbuk]

[quote="Tesla"]Well, since the sauna and both of the hot tubs will be powered by vodka, we should be fine.

bring on the dancing babes!

[Redbear]

Originally Posted by bus-bro

Though I'm not planning to use a 50 amp service, I'm wiring from the inlet to the panel for it. Not that much more expensive, and cheaper than a re-do. 30 amp service = 3600 watts, a 50 amp service = 12,000 watts.

To be clear, 30-amp RV service is 120 volts only, 3 wires: Hot, Neutral, and Ground. Wattage is 30 amps x 120 volts = 3600.

50-amp RV service is four wires with two Hot wires, plus the Neutral, and Ground. This provides 120 or 240 volts. You can put up to 50 amps total on each Hot leg. You can use this as 50 amps at 240 volts from Hot leg #1 to Hot leg #2. Power is 50 amps x 240 volts = 12,000. Or you can get 120 volts between either Hot leg and Neutral, up to 50 amps per side, 100 amps total. Power is still 100 amps x 120 volts = 12,000. You can also mix 240-volt and 120-volt loads, up to 50 amps per "leg," the same as most homes do.

The adapters that power a 50-amp four-pin plug from a 30-amp three-pin plug tie the two Hot wires together in the adapter, so there is no 240-volt supply available. You can draw 120-volts at up to 30 amps/3600 watts combined through the two Hot wires going to the bus, all from either wire to Neutral, or divided in any combination between the two.

Edit: 50-amp service requires a circuit breaker panel with two Hot feeds feeding the breakers on either Hot line, similar to what most houses have inside. 30-amp service can use a small panel with only one Hot feed. Either type needs two other buss bars, a Ground bar plus a Neutral bar insulated from the panel. Don't tie the Neutrals and Grounds in a vehicle together into the same buss like you would do in the main panel of a home.

[Jarlaxle]

I only plan to need 30 amps, but am wired for 50...mainly, the genset I will use has a 50A output. Also, at campgrounds, the 50A plugs tend top have MUCH better connections (newer, less use, or both).

[gbstewart]

Originally Posted by cincinnati_kid

2 air conditioners and say a microwave or a toaster or tv and you will overload a 30 amp circuit. Out of all all the camp grounds I have been in the last 10 years I would say 80% of them have 50 amp service. Almost all travel trailers and motorhomes are 50 amp. BTW a gen set can output 30 or 50 amp depending how it is rated. a 4000 W gen set is roughly 30 A at 120 V . A 6000 W gen set would be a 50A output at 120V

I havent had any problems , I run 2 acs 1 5000 btu and one 8000 btu , I have a built in surge protector as well, I tripped that more then I wanted to I still havent seen a park yet with 50 amp, so I guess I got to get out more Ill have to invest in a power adapter 50 amp -to 30
gbstewart

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by gbstewart

... I havent seen any 50 amp plugs yet at the parks that I have been to.

Originally Posted by cincinnati_kid

... Out of all all the camp grounds I have been in the last 10 years I would say 80% of them have 50 amp service. Almost all travel trailers and motorhomes are 50 amp...

It depends on what type of campgrounds you are staying in. Public campgrounds tend to only let you stay 14 days at a time. Private will allow monthly stays. Public campgrounds will allow any skoolie in. Not so with private campgrounds.

Public campgrounds (COE, SP, NF, etc), especially the smaller, out of the way ones, will be wired mostly, if not all, 30 amp max. Few 50 amps except in the more popular parks and then in selected sites. For example download the camp rates pdf and look under "Amps. Min-Max" to see available electric http://tn.gov/environment/parks/fees.shtml we have stayed at Harrison Bay and Tim's Ford... both have 30 amp max. Although Twin Lakes COE and Coneross COE (Seneca/Clemson SC) both have 50 amp sites. Lake Hartwell SP, Devils Fork SP (SC) does not. Oconee SP (SC) and Tallulah Gorge SP (GA) does. That is just a few that we personally have been in. There are no hard and fast rules about it.

Privately owned campgrounds will have a selection of available amperages. You will pay extra for 50 amp in most places. Mobile home parks tend to have 50 amp service.

We've been camping in public campgrounds since 1979. If you plan on being in both types of campgrounds set up to where you can use both 50 amp and, with conservation if need be, 30 amp. 30 amp will easily run 1 AC unit, 1 micro, fridge/freezer, TV etc. The biggest thing is the air conditioner or electric heat. Those are the things that will force you into 50 amp. Motor homes and the big fivers tend to be 50 amp now. Trailers tend to be 30 amp with 50 amp available as an option. Mostly it's how many AC units are stuck on the roof. Unless you plan to only stay in large, fairly new private campgrounds/resorts (make sure they will take a skoolie, or lie like mad) or you will only be boondocking or own your own land, I would suggest that you set up your electric to handle being knocked down to a 30 amp service at times.

[sunfighter]

one of the things I've found with a 40 ft bus is the campground usually has 50 amp sites only for the bigger rigs. kinda bugged me since I only have 30 amp setup, yet, I had to pay for a 50 amp site, and use an adapter.

[lornaschinske]

Interesting. I've never paid for a 50 amp site and we have parked in 65 ft long sites (pop-up or Class C plus two vehicles). Guess it depends on where you stay at. The private campground site we are currently in has 50 amp on the pole but the campground doesn't charge extra for 50 amp on the monthly (I don't think). Couldn't tell you what they charge for overnights.

Where are you people camping at? We've camped in FL, GA, SC, NC, TN, VA, NM and TX... mostly public campgrounds (State, NF, County and COE) You guys apparently stay in radically different campgrounds than we do.

[sunfighter]

lorna, with us it was a matter of a few overnight stops. In Mn. Wis, and I think one in Indiana. there was no pattern, just up to the camp owner I guess.

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by cincinnati_kid

... Why let your electric inside the bus be the limiting factor? You never know what you might want to add and its nice to have the extra capacity. If your building a custom system (like most of us are) why not build do 50 amp?

For folks like us, the amps our bus can take is not the problem, it's WHERE we camp at. If we don't have to be long term (which means a private campground... but we have spent 3 months in a state park...in the winter) then our #1 choice is a public campground. That means 30 amps are the norm for us. We can run a fair amount of stuff on 30 amps. Right now my biggest problem is I only have an ancient circa 1977 GE fuse box with 4 circuits in it. I have 30 amps main, 15 amp ground fault in the breaker box (DO NOT TRUST THE CAMPGROUNDS GROUND FAULTS... ADD ONE TO YOUR BREAKER BOX) another regular 15 amp breaker and a 20 amp breaker. The 20 amp has the A?C on it plus we plug the electric heater into it as well during winter. Right now, it also powers our big commercial electric pourover coffee maker (have to shut the heater down when it's plugged in). I also have 2 under counter refrigerators, 1 under counter freezer, a desktop computer/monitor plus printer, a 1000Watt microwave, 26" flat screen TV, DVD player (the VCR died and we are on park cable so I don't need the DISH box). All 10 of our lights are 12vDC. I cannot run the hair dryer on the HIGH setting on anything except the 20 amp circuit or I pop the breaker. This (and the coffee maker) will be on their own circuits in the bus. We never run everything all at the same time. That is something you need to understand when you set up your circuits. There are circuits that can only run specific things.

For the Bus...
We will still operate on a 30 amp main breaker with a ground fault circuit breaker in the panel box. I would rather my breaker trip and not rely on a possibly faulty campground breaker (and yes I have run across several). Our power cord is a 60amp/220vAC that we used as our welder's extension cord. We will simply plug the power cord into the generator when we need to use the generator. That is how we set the RV up and it has worked well for us. It's simple and we don't have to worry about feeding power backwards into an unprotected system.

30 AMP main breaker
30 AMP: 4 CF refrigerator, 12 CF upright freezer
30 AMP: Air conditioner
30 AMP: Water heater (for the heating system)
30 AMP: Washing machine
30 AMP: Auto Dishwasher (I loathe washing dishes)
20 AMP: microwave (& my gas range need ac to operate the electronic controls and piezoelectric system)
20 AMP: Galley counter duplexes
20 AMP: coffeemaker (will reside in a base cabinet on a roll out shelf and eventually will be replaced with my bread machine and slow cooker)
20 AMP: Living room (Any AC lights, receptacles, TV, Home theater/DVD system)
20 AMP: Bathroom (I can run my hair dryer on HIGH!!!)
20 AMP: Bedroom (Any lights, computer/monitor... monitor will double as a TV for movies and a printer)
CONVERTER/CHARGER: for all the 12vDC lighting, 12vDC fans, etc
The computer will be put on a UPS because I have already discovered that the power from our current POS Onan isn't up to running the computer (found that out on the way out here). While on the generator, every time the fridge or freezer (or AC) kicks on, the drain from the compressors start-up surge is enough to kick the computer off. So far, since putting the desktop in the RV, the power in the campgrounds has been pretty good and the computer has only kicked off a few times due to unstable power. But I had a convection microwave (in the pop-up) burn up once in a campground due to unstable power several years ago. I figure a UPS is a better choice for the potentially unstable power system.

If you add every thing up, yes that's more than 30 amps. But everything does not run at that same time. We've sized electrical loads for houses for a long time. We will use probably either GE, Siemans or Square D circuit breakers. Be careful about what breaker box brand you use. We have GE breakers currently. But have seen breakers that are available in GA that we couldn't easily find in TX. I use GE in the Class C but a friend who was rebuilding a vintage RV in CA had the same exact breaker box I did (our RV's were only a few years apart but different manufacturers) but couldn't find the breakers for his box. I ended up giving him a link to exactly the right breaker so that he could order it online. If you are only going to be traveling in a small regional are then you can get away with an odd breaker make but if you are traveling all over, then you need to go with a mainstream manufacturer. If I remember correctly, Siemans will fit their own and another major manufacturers box but I don't remember which (either GE or Square D).

[RevBill]

Nuke .. yeah ..

[lornaschinske]

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand what you mean. At our CURRENT campground, it's an unprotected circuit. But I have plugged into GA State Park circuits with Ground fault breakers on the 30 amp lines.



All I know is that one of the times we stayed in GA Veteran State Park. I plugged the Class C in to the 30 amp plug (Ground Fault on the breaker... I don't think the ground faults are on all the sites... because I have stayed at several sites in all three of the Loops over a 4+ year period... a few didn't have a ground fault breaker). The 15 amp Ground Fault breaker in the Class C tripped twice (not the main) but the one on the post did not. So I changed sites and told the park ranger after I got set up. They sent an electrician out to fix it. He came around and told me that the ground fault on the post had been damaged. It was a common occurrence and that some campers would (incorrectly) rewire the posts (I had already been told that by park rangers at Chester Frost in Chattanooga... one of our "neighbours" got lit up enough to go to the hospital). Maybe it doesn't work, but please don't tell me as it's working on our Class C and I plan on wiring the breaker box similar to the Class C's... just with more circuits. The circuit the Ground fault is on operates the double ganged duplex receptacle next to the galley sink. I use it often as that is what I plug the bread machine or crock pot in. The counter top toaster oven is on it for now.

[RevBill]

Nuke .. again ..

[RevBill]

Nuke ..

[baadpuppy]

I keep seeing the statement that a GFCI can't be downstream from another GFCI without tripping the upstream one. However, this is not the case unless something is wired or operating incorrectly.

I've personally never had a problem with GFCI downstream from another GFCI, unless something was miswired, or connections were loose somewhere. A GFCI properly installed and properly operating should NEVER trigger a fault event unless something plugged into it causes it, or someone pushes the test button. Loose neutral connections are a common cause for triggering a GFCI without an actual ground fault.

The way the GFCI works is by basically monitoring the current flow balance through the hot and neutral. In a proper circuit, they will be equal to each other, indicating that what goes out the hot line is returning via the neutral, maintaining balance. When they are imbalanced (in either direction), the difference in the current must have gone somewhere. This most often is a path to ground, but could be something else. Regardless, the imbalance is what trips the GFCI.

Imagine a see-saw with an equal weight on both ends, balanced perfectly horizontal. If any weight is added or removed from either end, it will teeter off balance. This is like 1 GFCI.

Now imagine a row of see-saws, with the weight on either side of the row balanced equally across all of them (could be 2, 3, 4, or more). Again, they will all balance if the weight is the same. But if any weight is added or removed from either side, they'll all teeter off balance. This is like several GFCIs in a sequence.

The only verifiable problem I've heard of is that if one trips, all the ones upstream from it should also trip. Most can't be reset until the upstreams are reset, and this can lead to confusion.

In the situations we're talking about, ie wiring a bus, then having GFCI breakers makes a LOT of sense. This puts all your "inside" protection in one spot. Making a note to yourself when you plug into the pedestal that it is GFCI protected will be a good reminder to yourself if you manage to trip it that you should reset the pedestal first before resetting the inside one. In all cases where you trip it, you should make sure you know WHY it got tripped before resetting.

Another thing to be aware of though... there are 2 RV appliances that are quite likely to trip a GFCI. These are the hot water heater, and the absorption fridge. Both of these items use an electric heating element. Such elements when worn can break down and actually bleed some current off to ground. Generally, such elements can be replaced with a model which won't have that kind of failure. This is just one more reason I won't be using standard RV appliances. I've personally experienced both, and still get tingles remembering it.

This forum thread might help shed some light on this.

I hope this information is helpful,
jim

[RevBill]

Nuke ..

.. no longer in the habit of giving any advice or opinions .. all fluffy and nothing but love for y'all ..

[RevBill]

Nuke ..


.. sometimes I behave poorly ..