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Old 01-16-2016, 04:21 AM   #21
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[QUOTE=Rebel;133375]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach View Post
Hot rodders have always said you can't beat cubic inches. The same applies to school buses.

Horsepower is what is needed and not cubic inches!!!


Max HP for both is about 250 HP but the torque numbers are not anything close to what you will find in a 250 HP DT466 or 8.3L. Which is why the small engines are great on the flat and get real pokey on the grades.

The 5.9 cummins is by far the best engine over the 444, and the 466. It takes a little tweeking for the 12 valve but they are simple and for under $1000 you can have them at a nice 350hp. The 24 valve is a little more complicated in the sense that it is electronically controlled, and a programmer will boost you to the 375hp range. If driven nice they will also get you 15 to 20 mpg.

If that's how you really feel, why don't you replace your 12.7 liter 400hp Series 60 with a 5.9 190hp 12 valve and do some massaging and see how it does in your MCI.
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Old 01-16-2016, 09:14 AM   #22
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I'm not in a race, its a bus,I built it for a journey, Hank, I have been on the hill on hwy 17 north shore, and some in PEI, and the old t444e, was fine, mind you I was running about 25kms an hour by the time I got to the top, but who's in a rush.
As for starting, no problems starts right up.
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:28 AM   #23
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Actually it's torque that moves a load.

"Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races"
Enzio Ferarri
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Old 01-16-2016, 03:35 PM   #24
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[QUOTE=Rebel;133375]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach View Post
Hot rodders have always said you can't beat cubic inches. The same applies to school buses.

Horsepower is what is needed and not cubic inches!!!


Max HP for both is about 250 HP but the torque numbers are not anything close to what you will find in a 250 HP DT466 or 8.3L. Which is why the small engines are great on the flat and get real pokey on the grades.

The 5.9 cummins is by far the best engine over the 444, and the 466. It takes a little tweeking for the 12 valve but they are simple and for under $1000 you can have them at a nice 350hp. The 24 valve is a little more complicated in the sense that it is electronically controlled, and a programmer will boost you to the 375hp range. If driven nice they will also get you 15 to 20 mpg.
Yes you can up the power on almost any diesel engine.

If you run the power up significantly you run the real risk of two things--overheating and transmission demolition.

Rear engine buses have a problem keeping things cool. It is a function of the fact that you can't get a normal flow of air through the radiator while going down the road like you do with a front engine. Even front engine buses will have issues with overheating if you increase the power significantly due to the fact the radiators are sized for the amount of HP they had when they left the factory.

Allison transmissions are specifically rated for HP and torque. If you exceed the parameters you run the real risk of blowing the transmission up. The top end for the Allison AT5xx and 1000/2000 series of transmissions is 250 HP.
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Old 01-16-2016, 04:11 PM   #25
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I absolutely agree with cowlitz...diesels are very easy too tweak the power up on...but...it is equally easy to exceed the hp/torque limits on the tranny. Small increases via injector swaps or turbo upgrades that stay within those limits can be a great and cost effective boost so long as they are within the limits of the tranny.

My little Cummins puts out 130HP and about 330lbs of torque but my 2200 Allison is rated to 300HP and 660 lbs so I have plenty of room to play. The 545's only have a net input range of 150-235 HP and 310-445 lbs of torque and you really need to stay within those numbers.

One more tranny consideration while we are on this subject...
Gross Weight needs to also stay within range on whatever tranny you have. Knowing there are a lot of 545's still out there and many are pulling radically modified skoolies...keep this number in mind...30,000 lbs GVW.

I know that sounds like a lot (more than I can bench press) but given that some skoolie builders get a bit carried away, it is not that hard to exceed.

Just check your trannies comfort zone numbers before you go wild on hp, torque or...weight.
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Old 01-16-2016, 05:38 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango View Post
I absolutely agree with cowlitz...diesels are very easy too tweak the power up on...but...it is equally easy to exceed the hp/torque limits on the tranny. Small increases via injector swaps or turbo upgrades that stay within those limits can be a great and cost effective boost so long as they are within the limits of the tranny.

My little Cummins puts out 130HP and about 330lbs of torque but my 2200 Allison is rated to 300HP and 660 lbs so I have plenty of room to play. The 545's only have a net input range of 150-235 HP and 310-445 lbs of torque and you really need to stay within those numbers.

One more tranny consideration while we are on this subject...
Gross Weight needs to also stay within range on whatever tranny you have. Knowing there are a lot of 545's still out there and many are pulling radically modified skoolies...keep this number in mind...30,000 lbs GVW.

I know that sounds like a lot (more than I can bench press) but given that some skoolie builders get a bit carried away, it is not that hard to exceed.

Just check your trannies comfort zone numbers before you go wild on hp, torque or...weight.
yes, weight is a big issue, its real eazy to pile on weight, right now i'm sitting at 18,700 pounds.
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:49 AM   #27
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CraxyCal. Look I am not replacing my engine in the coach. I believe the thread was a discussion on 5.9 and the 444. I just pit my 2cents worth in and I am not going to turn this into a pissing contest. I do however have some knowledge in the 5.9 12v engine as I have 3 of them here on the farm. 1 is in my 03 f350 dually 4x4 that I have tweeked and dynoed and it puts out 565hp to the rear wheels with 610ft/lbs torque. As you may guess I prefer the 5.9 to the 444!
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:09 PM   #28
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Not sure what makes a 5.9 better than a DT466.... I'd say at best it's a wash with no clear winner. Esp given that the last gen mechanical DT466s had the same injection pump and could be in-framed, AND had another 1.7 litres of displacement.

Not saying it's bad, but to say one is better is fooooooolish ;)
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:13 PM   #29
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Not sure what makes a 5.9 better than a DT466.... I'd say at best it's a wash with no clear winner. Esp given that the last gen mechanical DT466s had the same injection pump and could be in-framed, AND had another 1.7 litres of displacement.

Not saying it's bad, but to say one is better is fooooooolish ;)
5.9 tend to have better economy but thats about it. The in-frame thing is the winner for me.
I think you can stretch more HP out of the Cummins too, but who cares about HP in this setting.
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:21 PM   #30
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CraxyCal. Look I am not replacing my engine in the coach. I believe the thread was a discussion on 5.9 and the 444. I just pit my 2cents worth in and I am not going to turn this into a pissing contest. I do however have some knowledge in the 5.9 12v engine as I have 3 of them here on the farm. 1 is in my 03 f350 dually 4x4 that I have tweeked and dynoed and it puts out 565hp to the rear wheels with 610ft/lbs torque. As you may guess I prefer the 5.9 to the 444!
No need to freak out and bash your head. A pickup that weighs 7-8k is not the same thing as a bus that weighs in at 16-25k empty. There is no substitute for cubes. Just because you can get the same HP from a smaller engine doesn't mean you have the same thing as a larger engine with the same HP. You will be working the smaller engine to death doing the same work.

I had a concrete truck with a Mercedes engine. HP was 410 and torque was something like 1350 @1100 rpm. Displacement was 12.9 liters I think. So the point you're making is you engine is more powerful. Could your engine idle up a hill pulling a 55k pound load. I would take a DT466 or 8.3 Cummins and day of the week over a 5.9 or 444.

As far as Cowlitz is concerned, he has sold buses for many years and owned a bus company I believe. I would guess he probably doesn't know anything about buses.
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