Crown Supercoach II roof raise and other concerns

[GWRider]

Anyone raise the roof on a CSII or know anyone who has? I heard raising the roof on the regular CS was tricky because the windows angle in slightly, making it a challenge to raise the roof. It does not appear that would be the case for the CSII. Also, is there any other things to be concerned about with the CSII?

I don't own a CSII but was considering it as another option in my search.

[Iceni John]

The original Supercoach and the Super II share exactly the same body profile between the wheels, in other words the bottoms taper in, the section between floor and windows is about vertical, and the windows angle in. Yes. folk have raised Crown roofs, but it seems like a major project, not for someone without the skills and determination. More to the point, why would you want to do it on a Super II? It would end up looking weird and out of proportion, and the front and rear caps would end up being too steep an angle to be attractive. Super IIs are some of the most handsome buses ever made, but a raised roof would give them a sort of Frankenstein-forehead appearance. There's 77" of headroom inside - how tall are you?

John

[GWRider]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

The original Supercoach and the Super II share exactly the same body profile between the wheels, in other words the bottoms taper in, the section between floor and windows is about vertical, and the windows angle in. Yes. folk have raised Crown roofs, but it seems like a major project, not for someone without the skills and determination. More to the point, why would you want to do it on a Super II? It would end up looking weird and out of proportion, and the front and rear caps would end up being too steep an angle to be attractive. Super IIs are some of the most handsome buses ever made, but a raised roof would give them a sort of Frankenstein-forehead appearance. There's 77" of headroom inside - how tall are you?

John

As already mentioned, I don't have a SCII and the person I contacted said it was around 72". I am just shy of 6'2 and do not feel like bending my head all the time. My son and some relatives are even taller, so even 77" is questionable. I agree raising the entire roof would give it the Frankenstein look. However, I would have it tapered (especially in front) similar to what others do with their Bluebirds and Thomas's. If anyone knows of someone who has successfully raised an SCII, I would like to see some pics and get some feedback.

[Iceni John]

There are very few Super IIs in private ownership anywhere, let alone being converted. Locutus in WA started his 36 footer but gave up after a few years. Mid-Placer 35, the sister bus to mine, was sold on CL after some kids had it for a few years (and probably thrashed it mercilessly). My friend Al has Fresno 20 and one from Clovis, and Moki has Wahkiakum 1 from WA state. There's even one in Vancouver BC used for city tours, painted in Union Jack colors. There was a white one near Stockton CA a few years ago, but I don't know what happened to it. Those are the only Super IIs I know of in private ownership - maybe there are a few more here and there, but not many. None of them are converted. I think mine is (or will be when I finish it) the only fully-converted Super II in the country, i.e. in the world! If you raise a Super II's roof, it will definitely be unique. Good luck.

Realistically, a straight-side bus like a Thombird would be a better candidate for major surgery like what you want to do, or just buy a low-floor transit such as a Gillig LF with 6'8" headroom.

John

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

There are very few Super IIs in private ownership anywhere, let alone being converted. Locutus in WA started his 36 footer but gave up after a few years. Mid-Placer 35, the sister bus to mine, was sold on CL after some kids had it for a few years (and probably thrashed it mercilessly). My friend Al has Fresno 20 and one from Clovis, and Moki has Wahkiakum 1 from WA state. There's even one in Vancouver BC used for city tours, painted in Union Jack colors. There was a white one near Stockton CA a few years ago, but I don't know what happened to it. Those are the only Super IIs I know of in private ownership - maybe there are a few more here and there, but not many. None of them are converted. I think mine is (or will be when I finish it) the only fully-converted Super II in the country, i.e. in the world! If you raise a Super II's roof, it will definitely be unique. Good luck.

Realistically, a straight-side bus like a Thombird would be a better candidate for major surgery like what you want to do, or just buy a low-floor transit such as a Gillig LF with 6'8" headroom.

John

ID and BB have straight sides. Thomas has a 6 degree slope at the windows.

[cowlitzcoach]

You may find starting with a transit bus to be a better choice since all of the low floor models have much more than 80" in the front portion and more than 76" from the rear axle back.

Yes you lose under floor space but you can build it up on the bus floor and then build another floor over it. With some planning up front you should be able to have a fairly good setup without having to raise the roof.

Of all of the Crowns I have seen that had a roof lift the most successful looking ones were lifted at the floor level. The new section of wall was in the only place in the side wall where the sidewall was 90* to the floor.

The other advantage of raising below the windows is it raises the windows up to standing height rather than sitting height--you can look out the windows without stooping over.

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

ID and BB have straight sides. Thomas has a 6 degree slope at the windows.

Really? I was following a Thomas pusher this morning, and its side windows looked vertical to me, or maybe only imperceptibly angled in. They looked the same as the Blue Bird TC1000's ahead of it. Just wondering.

John

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

Really? I was following a Thomas pusher this morning, and its side windows looked vertical to me, or maybe only imperceptibly angled in. They looked the same as the Blue Bird TC1000's ahead of it. Just wondering.

John

Yes Thomas sides angle in 6 degrees at the bottom of the window line.

[Iceni John]

The jury's still out on that one.

John

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

The jury's still out on that one.

John

In what way???

[GWRider]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

There are very few Super IIs in private ownership anywhere, let alone being converted. Locutus in WA started his 36 footer but gave up after a few years. Mid-Placer 35, the sister bus to mine, was sold on CL after some kids had it for a few years (and probably thrashed it mercilessly). My friend Al has Fresno 20 and one from Clovis, and Moki has Wahkiakum 1 from WA state. There's even one in Vancouver BC used for city tours, painted in Union Jack colors. There was a white one near Stockton CA a few years ago, but I don't know what happened to it. Those are the only Super IIs I know of in private ownership - maybe there are a few more here and there, but not many. None of them are converted. I think mine is (or will be when I finish it) the only fully-converted Super II in the country, i.e. in the world! If you raise a Super II's roof, it will definitely be unique. Good luck.

Realistically, a straight-side bus like a Thombird would be a better candidate for major surgery like what you want to do, or just buy a low-floor transit such as a Gillig LF with 6'8" headroom.

John

I initially started looking at Bluebird and Thomas with the 8.3L Cummins with the Allison MD3060. However, I do think the Crown is better in many ways but I am discovering they will be more work to get it to what I want. The Gillig is a good quality bus but to me it looks like a shoe box with wheels.

[GWRider]

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

You may find starting with a transit bus to be a better choice since all of the low floor models have much more than 80" in the front portion and more than 76" from the rear axle back.

Yes you lose under floor space but you can build it up on the bus floor and then build another floor over it. With some planning up front you should be able to have a fairly good setup without having to raise the roof.

Of all of the Crowns I have seen that had a roof lift the most successful looking ones were lifted at the floor level. The new section of wall was in the only place in the side wall where the sidewall was 90* to the floor.

The other advantage of raising below the windows is it raises the windows up to standing height rather than sitting height--you can look out the windows without stooping over.

I had the same thought of raising it from just below where the sides start to angle. However, I don't know what kinds of issues I may encounter because I am not familiar with how it is constructed? There are several examples of how a Bluebird or Thomas are raised and those look pretty straightforward. However, I have not found anything for a SCII.

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

In what way???

The "conventional" front-engine Thomas buses have obviously canted-in windows as your photos clearly reveal, but the high-roof pushers such as in your middle photo do not show that as clearly. Maybe I'll pay a visit to Newport Mesa's bus yard with a straight edge and check their Thomas pushers!

More to the point, I think a Super II with a high roof would lose its aesthetic balance and end up just looking dumpy and mis-proportioned, almost like it has some pituitary issue. Maybe it could then be called Merrick? Try imagining raising the roof on these (the good stuff starts at 0:40):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG4i3eRKMMo

Oh, the horror!

John

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

The "conventional" front-engine Thomas buses have obviously canted-in windows as your photos clearly reveal, but the high-roof pushers such as in your middle photo do not show that as clearly. Maybe I'll pay a visit to Newport Mesa's bus yard with a straight edge and check their Thomas pushers!

More to the point, I think a Super II with a high roof would lose its aesthetic balance and end up just looking dumpy and mis-proportioned, almost like it has some pituitary issue. Maybe it could then be called Merrick? Try imagining raising the roof on these (the good stuff starts at 0:40):

Oh, the horror!

John

Its a Thomas thing. ALL their buses are shaped like that.

[herbali]

The Crowns or at least the Series II have a specially engineered method of dripping water that happens to get inside the windows down onto the ground. Basically there is just about a 1/2" - 3/4" slot where the windows fall into when opened and water can drip through. There is an offset piece of aluminum on the outside body and the moisture drips right out of that about midway up the body of the bus. There are rubber seals that help stop any wind from coming in but still allow moisture to pass through.

My wife and i considered raising the roof on ours but are mostly concerned with losing this functionality. If done below the windows you would have to extend this gap channel to keep it intact. I am sure it could be done but i am pretty sure my engineering would not beat Crown's on this one. Its a brilliant method to make sure any condensation or moisture falls to its proper place.

Like John said they are awesome looking buses as they are. Once i got it home and really looked at it i was pretty sure i would be disappointed with changing its looks that much. Now if i was 6' 2" that would be a different story! I am only 5' 10".

[cowlitzcoach]

Originally Posted by herbali

The Crowns or at least the Series II have a specially engineered method of dripping water that happens to get inside the windows down onto the ground. Basically there is just about a 1/2" - 3/4" slot where the windows fall into when opened and water can drip through. There is an offset piece of aluminum on the outside body and the moisture drips right out of that about midway up the body of the bus. There are rubber seals that help stop any wind from coming in but still allow moisture to pass through.

My wife and i considered raising the roof on ours but are mostly concerned with losing this functionality. If done below the windows you would have to extend this gap channel to keep it intact. I am sure it could be done but i am pretty sure my engineering would not beat Crown's on this one. Its a brilliant method to make sure any condensation or moisture falls to its proper place.

Like John said they are awesome looking buses as they are. Once i got it home and really looked at it i was pretty sure i would be disappointed with changing its looks that much. Now if i was 6' 2" that would be a different story! I am only 5' 10".

If you started the roof raise at the floor level you would leave all of the windows and the associated dry wall construction and all of it would be raised as a single piece.

The real advantage to starting the raise at the floor level is all of the windows would be raised to eye height and would allow for standard counter height without interfering with any of the windows.