Diesel Starting Problem - Question

BusMe · 10-27-2006, 12:36 PM

Hi guys,
I know some of you have the DT-360 so I'm hoping you can help me as I have little to no knowledge of diesel engines.

I recently bought a 1984 International S-1700, 27 passenger and the paperwork states it has a DT-350 engine. Thing is, it doesn't want to start without a shot of ether to get it going. In fact, I've never gotten to start without a squirt of go juice first. Maybe I'm not cranking it long enough but when the starter sounds like it's starting to slow or drag I just give up and give it a squirt. Try starting again and after a few rotations it starts right up. I was thinking it might be a glow plug(s) problem but after searching the site it appears it could also be an injector pump or fuel lift? problem. I'm still thinking maybe glow plug(s) as it would take less "spark" to fire off the ether than the diesel fuel. So... can anyone tell me where the glow plug(s) are, how many there are and where I can get replacements as well as what to ask for? Guessing... next to the injectors and 1 per cylinder but better to ask than not. And even if I'm guessing right I still have no idea where I might acquire new ones and what exactly I should ask for and I don't expect the guys at the auto parts stores would be of much help although I could be wrong there too.

BusMe · 10-27-2006, 02:37 PM

I always turn the switch on and let the glow plug cycle before giving it a squirt but I know what you mean. That's why I'd really like to get it starting on it's own. The less ether I have to use the better I like it.

Thanks.

Busme

Kirbystud · 10-27-2006, 07:28 PM

I have worked on diesel engines for about 16 years. But they have all been with Cat. So here is my first question?????? When you start to crank it over do you get smoke out the exhaust right a way. Next how fast is the starter turning over the engine???? Speed of the starter speed is BIG.....If it only starts hard when it's cold then I would check the glow plugs. I not sure if that engine just has a intake heater or plugs someone else might know that...I think that your fuel is bleeding back or your starter is not turning fast enough. With starting fluid it gets it turning faster. Good luck.....

GoneCamping · 10-27-2006, 09:35 PM

Sounds like glow plugs to me too. Might only be one or two that are bad... At the age of the unit it wouldn't hurt to replace them all...though that can be little costly as glow plugs are NOT cheap!!

Jarlaxle · 10-28-2006, 08:50 AM

Does the DT360 have them? I know the larger IH inline sixes (DT408, Dt466) don't.

the_experience03 · 10-28-2006, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babylon42

I'll let the guys who know what their talking about tackle your question, but I wanted to say to be careful with using the ether - afaik it's not really reccomended for diesels - i've seen a big diesel tractor blow an engine while trying to get it running with ether.

Ford recommends using it right in their manual for the 6.6 and 7.8 I-6 diesels

The reason most manufacturers don't recommend it is because it doesn't take much to ignite it. An intake grid heater or glowplugs would light up ether pretty quick. The reason you can get away with it on the Brazilian Fords is that they don't have either and need any help they can get to start when it's sub-freezing out. That said, I've only had to use it once.

lapeer20m · 10-28-2006, 02:15 PM

The the international dt 360 does not have glow plugs, not any of the engines that i've ever seen. The 7.3 litre or the 6.9? international v8's do have glow plugs.

There could be lots of things causing the problem, but if you do have a dt360 my guess is that there is a small hole in the fuel line letting air into the system. Try priming the enging using the plunger on the side of the lifer pump before starting the engine next time and see if that helps. When you move the plunger up and down you should feel it pushing fuel through the system. If it goes up and down with little or no resistance then my guess is that you have a hole in the fuel line and it's sucking air.

BusMe · 10-28-2006, 04:45 PM

Thanks for the help guys.

Kirbystud - No smoke out the back until she starts. Then she smokes for a little while before she quits. White... I think.

lapeer20m - I'll check it out to see if there's a leak allowing air into the fuel lines. I'll even try your suggestion of priming using the lifting pump... except I gotta find it first.

Told you I knew nothing of diesels.

BTW: How do you know which body you have?

I know I mentioned the DT-360 because I've seen a lot of postings related to them but the seller of mine bus listed the engine as a DT-350. Not sure what the difference is between the 350 and 360. Anybody know?
Thanks again!
Busme

the_experience03 · 10-28-2006, 08:49 PM

I think the seller either had a dypo....er...typo or they just didn't know what they were talking about.

The plnuger will be right on the injector pump. Just follow all the fuel lines from the injectors back down and you'll find the pump. It's a big thing hanging off the side of the block. The plunger will look like a little wheel. If it's like mine, you will have to turn it a few times to get it to pop up. Then pump away, push it down, screw it down, and crank. Don't be surprised if you have to pump for a while. It's a small pump and you might need to move a lot of fuel.

BusMe · 10-30-2006, 06:22 AM

the_experience03 - Thanks! Your directions make it sound like a piece of cake and they make perfect sense. I should have thought of following the lines. I appreciate it!
Busme

lapeer20m · 10-30-2006, 07:24 AM

if you have a digital camera, take a photo of the engine when/if you have the engine cover removed and perhaps one of us can identify it for you.

if it has glow plugs, it's prob not a dt360.......i do not believe there is any such thing as a dt350

BusMe · 10-31-2006, 03:17 PM

I'll do that and thanks!
Busme

lapeer20m · 10-31-2006, 03:25 PM

here are some photos of engines i found while searching. i think that the 6.9 and 7.3 liter V8 ford powerstroke/IH motors are about the only ones with glow plugs commonly used in buses. Anyone have or seen a bus with glow plugs other than the powerstroke motors? There were the old GM diesel 6.5? liter motors, but i can't immagine too many of them made it into IH bus chasis.

below are the common skoolie motors that popped into my brain. There is a high probability that you have either a DT series engine, or the V8 7.3 or 6.9 since these are international motors.

DT series engines tend to be panted blue:

[img]http://www.nav-international.com.br/Ima ... md_dt466(4).jpg[/img]

ford brazialian motors are grey:

here is an 8.2 liter V8 DD four stroke...it's a very common skoolie engine

cat motors are yellow, here's a 3208

[img]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9gnMiTUy0dFp54AXkejzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN 0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=1239pmo62/EXP=1162419540/**http%3a//www.rebuiltdieselengines.com/Cat3208.jpg[/img]

i don't know what color the ford (IH) 7.3 liter powerstroke motors are, but here's an image of one:

again, uncertian if they have a standard color, but here's a 5.9 cummings motor

anyone else familiar with other engine colors?

eggman · 10-31-2006, 04:56 PM

AFAIK, my IH skoolie came with an ether can as factory.

phillbus914 · 10-31-2006, 09:54 PM

my cummins 5.9 is tan.

BusMe · 11-01-2006, 11:13 AM

Been working, late and weekends, so haven't had a chance to take a picture yet. Heck, I haven't even had a chance to raise the hood but I believe the engine is painted blue. Let you know as soon as I can check.
Thanks for all the help.
Busme

BusMe · 11-03-2006, 05:25 PM

Well, I guess I have to back up and regroup. I got a chance to clean off the engine some today and low and behold there's a sticker that says it's a 6.9 diesel. What I see on the net says the 6.9 is a ford engine. Is that correct.
Going tonight or tomorrow to get new batteries and see what happens.
Busme

wmah · 11-03-2006, 05:55 PM

The 6.9 is an international engine that ford also used in thier 3/4 and 1 to E-series and F-series trucks.

In the past I have seen the glow plug controllers on them fail and I always just put a manual push button in to energize the relay. I have also had the fusable links that come off the glow plug relay burn up.

I did once have all the glow plugs burn up on one side and the other side had a bad fusable link and that whole summer it started good but then once it got a little cooler out it started hard.

the_experience03 · 11-03-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillbus914

my cummins 5.9 is tan.

It looks hemorraging-15w40-out-of-every-seal black to me.

Ok, I'm sorry....just about everything I own looks way worse with the one exception being my bus. For whatever reason, that motor is spotless. It even still has the factory barcode stickers on most of the like-new Ford Gray parts. Now if I could just find where Ford hid that 474 ft lbs and 185 hp they claim it has.....

BTW...let me know what's going on with the Jeep when you get news.

lapeer20m · 11-03-2006, 06:10 PM

the 6.9 is a normally aspirated (non turbo) IH motor indirect injection, found in Ford pickup's and ambulances in the late 80's and possibly into the early 90's. It's the predassor to the 7.3 liter powerstroke.

all indications are that this motor lasts A LOT of miles in a pickup truck. I don't know anyone with this motor in a skoolie. I have however driven a couple of ambulances with that motor in them. We have near identical rigs that are governed @ ~94mph with a 7.3 powerstroke, and the old 6.9 (well, we've actually gotten rid of all the 6.9's by now because they were so old) anyhow, these non-turbo 6.9's in our rigs wouldn't top 65 mph unless they were going downhill.

My guess is that a 6.9 in a bus would be painfully sloth-like and probly unable to get out of it's own way. But it's all about the journey, not the destination eh? I drove all the way from michigan to cali and back with a horribly underpowered 6.6 liter braizillian ford that climbed the hills in colorado at a solid 21 mph @ wide open throttle. Top speed on flat ground was 57 mph. It was a long long trip.

be glad it's not a new 6.0 liter ford motor.....they can't keep these new motors running, Ford has been buying them back from owners due to lemon laws in various states.

i still don't know why your motor won't start......

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