Forklift Propane tank?

[Highwayman]

I am sure everyone else has seen the tanks of lp that they use for little skid steers & forklifts. I think that these would work better than multiple grill type tanks and wondering if anyone has done this etc. Also curious if anyone has ever done propane injection & wondering if 1 propane system can be done for heat/cooking injection etc.

[frank-id]

Propane tanks made for industrial use are usually more costly than the standard RV tank. A propane system can be connected to a variety of uses provided the supply lines can supply sufficient gas volume. Small RV type tanks are nice for ease of removing, lighter to move and cheap to buy. There are many sizes of tanks to choose frfom and very large tanks up to 100 gallons from large trucks. With large tanks, filling can be problematic. I have 2 standard tanks mounted under my bus, but when parked for at least several weeks, a large 50 gallon tank is connected near my bus. Propane injection to a diesel engine uses a very small amount of gas at about 7-15 psi and only at 80% full throttle. Propane makes a great boost for hard work and climbing a long steep hill. Large propane tanks are not easy to get refilled and there is not any great advantage in convenience or any price advantage. For a while I had a 50 gallon tank undedr a bus. Propane weighs about 4.25 pounds per gallon. My small BBQ size tanks are easy to take to any refill place. Frank

[Steve]

Mine is an industrial side mounted tank somewhat similar to a forklift tank. The reason use this type is because that is what fits into the space I have left for the tank. If you find a size that works with your bus go for it. And yes it is VERY heavy when full.

Just don't mount a tank in an orientation it is not designed for.

[lapeer20m]

as far as industrial lp tanks, i think they are only 40 pounders. You can buy 40 pound standard grill propane cylinders and i'm sure they're a lot less money. I see the industrial tanks mounted sideways most of the time....can they be mounted in other configurations? idk.

to exchange a standard 20 pound propane tank it's about $20

to fill my 100 pound propane cylinder it costs me $50 for those of you bad at math, that's double the price per gallon to fill the small tanks. Anyplace that fills little propane cylinders will fill the 100 pounders as they all take the same connector. The 100 pounder is a pain to move compared to the little tanks. The tank weighs nearly 100 pounds empty, and double that when full.

The 100 pounder has to stay upright. It's illegal to mount propane cylinders inside the living space of your RV. I think that building a cabinet that is vented to the outside to keep your cylinder in is an excellent idea.

I have played around with propane injection in my skoolie. the system cost me about $100. 70 dollars of that was just for a regulator (an acetaline regulator fits right on a propane tank) The 20 pound cylinder is not big enough to maintain 10 psi for more than a minute or so through a 1/4" npt hole. In my opinion a 20 pound cylinder is not large enough for propane injection in a bus.

here's the cabinet we use to secure oxygen cylinders in our ambulances:



there is a small access door on the inside of the vehile to allow the tank to be turned on/off.




i think this would be an ideal setup for a 100 pound propane cylinder.

[frank-id]

Propane Article with setup instructions and Pics..."



I first heard about the addition of propane to a diesel engine from some of the threads on the ford diesel website. The concept is that diesel fuel when it burns, doesn't burn completeley. In fact it only burns about 75%, so the total available power(in the form of released btu's) from a given amount of fuel is somewhat wasted, especially in a non-turbo deisel engine. The addition of propane(lpg) to the intake air, acts as a catalyst, and allows the diesel fuel to burn more completely releasing all the available power. The result is a cleaner burning engine(less soot, cleaner oil) and increased power for any given volume of fuel, and therefore, increased fuel economy.


I was intrigued, so I checked into it. There are a few companys that offer after-market bolt on systems, most of them in and around the $500 U.S. price range, but most of those are designed for trucks which are running a turbo on the engine. Since I don't have a turbo on mine, and don't really want to add one to my tired, old engine, I was hoping to find a system that would work on a non turbo application. A company named Bully Dog Technologies did e-mail me back and said their system would work on a non turbo application, but it was still $600 U.S.(about $900 Can.) and I figured I could build something that might work for cheaper than that. One guy described a system he made at home, and although his was also a turbo application, I thought it could work. So I built much the same system.



I would like to put a word of warning here! Propane can be very dangerous if not used properly. If respected, however can be very safe. Always check all fittings for leaks using soapy water prior to running the system. You can never be TOO careful!




My plan was to have the lpg setup so as to come on when maximum power was needed but not run all the time so as to conserve on the added cost of the purchase of lpg.



Equipment required...



Vapour-type propane tank(BBQ style 20lb'er works fine)
High to low Pressure regulator(Acetylene one works great)
Hobbs pressure switch
Electric solenoid Lock-off switch
Micro switch for throttle activation
Various hose & fittings
Dash mounted toggle on/off switch



My total cost for all this stuff was less than $250 Can. but I did scrounge some of it second hand, so to purchase it all brand new would probably run closer to $300 Can.



Setup


A long (10ft.) extension hose connects the tank sitting in the back of the truck to the Acetylene regulator mounted at the front of the box on the driver's side. I had to wire wrap the hose fittings to connect the high pressure hose to the regulator.(Don't want any leaks here!)

click here for tank pic


Next, I mounted the acetelyene regulator and the electric Lock-off valve in a box that was accesible, but safe from things bouncing around in the bed of the truck. I put the lock-off on the low pressure side of the regulator so that if it somehow didn't completely close off the flow, the leak would at least be a low pressure one. It has been suggested that maybe a second lock-off valve connected to a separate on/off toggle on the dash might be a good idea, to have absolute control. I can't see anything wrong with that idea. I have the regulator set to around 4psi pressure. This is the pressure in the line. When the flow is activated, the low side of the gauge drops to less than 1psi.

Click here for pic of regulator


I then ran 1/4" fuel rated hose from the Lock-off valve through a solid brass fitting mounted at the forward drivers side corner of the box down along the inside of the frame rail and up over the top of the engine along the firewall to the air intake hat. To connect to the intake I used the same type brass 3/16ID. fittings with 0-ring seals and a small 4" length of copper tube on the inside with some 8 holes drilled through one side to allow the propane to disperse into the incoming air stream.

Click here for pic of intake


The electrical connections consist of running a wire from battery power through a micro switch mounted alongside of the fuel injector pump, just barely coming into contact with the timing advance lever. As the throttle is opened, the advance lever moves out/away from the pump, and eventually when the throttle is at about the half way point, the micro switch is depressed and allows current to flow.

Click here for pic of micro switch


I then ran the electrical through a Hobb's style pressure switch connected inline with the oil pressure gallery. This switch is normally "open", and only allows current to flow when the oil pressure is above 15psi. The other one on the left in the photo is for my "idiot" light on the dash which is not related to the lpg setup, but is normally "closed" and only lights up if oil pressure drops below 15 psi!! (paranoia factor)

Click here for pic of Hobbs switch


Finally, the wiring runs through a toggle switch on the dash(the little blue one down low)which is also connected to the little green led up on the steering column to show when electricity is flowing, and thus indicate when the lpg is also being activated. From there the current runs to the Lock-off valve in the truck box mounted alongside the regulator.

Click here for pic of Dash switch



Well, that's it!



Does it work you might ask? You Bet! It took a bit of fiddling to get the micro switch set where I wanted it to be, and some fiddling to find the right amount of pressure to run the system at, but once I got it right, there was no turning back. The difference in power is immediate and impressive. It doesn't "snap" on, but kind of comes on smooth and strong. I think because the distance from the regulator to the intake is some 11 ft, there is about 1 second delay, but barely noticeable. I did a few tests to get some numbers. On the flat, shifting through all 4 as fast as I could, 0-60mph, without the lpg on, I could do it in about 22 seconds(3 tries averaged) When I turned the lpg on and did the same test, I spun out in 1st, but still made it to 60 in about 16 secs. Climbing a local hill, about 5% grade I had about 2,000lbs of gravel in the back, and without lpg, I couldn't hold 55mph in 4th, and had to shift down after about 1/2 mi. When I did the same thing with the lpg on, I had to back off the throttle at about 3/4 mi, because I was gettin' up to 65mph!!(speed limit 55)


So, for anyone who is looking for a way to get more power, at a reasonable cost, with some nice side benefits, without the added stress to an engine of a turbo, then lpg is a great way to accomplish this. Go for it!



I will mention again, this stuff is great if used properly and respected, but we know that propane can do some serious damage to life and limb if abused. Double check your system for leaks before using it, and better yet, have it inspected!



Happy Truckin'!.....Don




I thought I'd add a little update paragraph to this article.


It's been a few months now since I first had the lpg up and working on my truck. I have not been able to notice any increase in fuel economy, in fact, my fuel mileage has gone down significantly, and I know why. It's because I can't seem to be able to get my foot off the "go pedal" It's so hard with all that power!!

Actually I wanted to mention a couple things. One is that I finally had to fill the same 20lb'er that I started with, but that's after about 8-10 tanks of fuel run through. So, to me, for 15 bucks to fill the lpg tank, it's well worth it. Next though, I've had to change the setup somewhat. I'm finding that the single stage "acetylene" regulator that I use is a little difficult to control. I seem to be always adjusting it, to find the "sweet spot". I'm convinced that it is because of changes in pressure in the tank due to ambient temperature variations. So, I've put a second small regulator in the low pressure line nearer to the engine. This allows me to drop the tank pressure to between 10-15psi with the 1st stage, and then the second stage I am now running at about 5/6psi through a 5/32(instead of the original 3/16)inch orifice to the engine. As the tank pressure goes up and down slightly, the pressure at the engine remains more/less constant. One guy e-mailed me to say he had done much the same thing, but using a Sears craftsman model 359H 2stage regulator(from a welding rig) on his, but I couldn't find such a regulator here in Canada.
here is a pic of it


I also have found that if the micro switch is set to allow flow of lpg at very heavy throttle applications, it seems to smoke black a lot. Lots of power, but I found that if I set the switch so that the lpg flows at a throttle postion just over that required to lightly accelerate on the hwy from 60mph, then the lpg flows sooner, with lesser throttle application, but there doesn't appear to be the black smoke(overfuel), until I really get into the full throttle position, which is now often not needed except on the larger hills.

I also found that if the lpg hasn't been on for a long time, then the first time or two that it is turned on, there is often a lot of black smoke for a bit. I am not really sure what this is about, but it seems to clear up very quickly, and I am guessing that it is somehow built up carbon/soot deposits being "blown" out of the engine when the lpg is being used. Once lpg has been on for a few seconds, it clears up, and then there is hardly any smoke out the exhaust at all, even with fairly heavy acceleration.

Overall, I still feel that this is the single most significant thing I have done to my N/A engine with respect to getting more power without having to spend the big bucks, and have the added stress of a turbo.


Don

[paul iossi]

BBQ/ rv tanks are vapor withdrawl,Industrial tanks are liquid withdrawl, if you invert your tank you change the operation with less than desirable results some of them can get 911 exciting, be sure that you are properly informed when dealing with LP tanks

[paul iossi]

frank,
cool beans, turbo in a bottle, just like nitrous oxide for a gas motor?

[lapeer20m]

Originally Posted by paul iossi

frank,
cool beans, turbo in a bottle, just like nitrous oxide for a gas motor?

only way safer for the engine, and a lot easier to install. However, As a gas, nitrous is much much safer to handle. Nitrous oxide isn't even flamable.

installing a nitrous system in a gas motor requires an injector for nitrous and one for fuel to keep the fuel/air ratio proper

in a diesel, the engine gets as much air as possible all the time. to create more hp, you only have to add more fuel, in this case propane.

From what i've read here is another big difference in nitrous and propane. Nitrous is only used for short bursts of power. Propane can be used in larger quantities for short bursts of power ie: hill climbing. Propane can also be used when trying to maintain normal highway speeds as a means in increasing fuel economy. Apparently there is some synergy involved when adding propane and diesel fuel in a combustion chamber. Adding a little propane is supposed to make diesel fuel burn more efficiently. Less unburned diesel being dumped out the exhaust pipe = better fuel economy.

propane is also very cold when it enters the intake which may or may not help reduce temperatures inside the cylinders.

the problem i have with my propane system is that a 20# bbq tank cannot supply hte necessary pressure for more than a minute or so. I need to find a permanent mounting place for my 100# cylinder.

one more thing if you want to build your own setup...which is a very simple thing to do, is that a standard accetalene (sp) regulator fits perfectly onto a propane cylinder.

[paul iossi]

Doesn't the propane in the intake cause preignition?
Diesels fire from the heat of compression and the fuel injection is timed after the combustion temp is reached, _degrees before TDC just like spark in a gas engine, if fuel is in the intake charge wouldn't it ignite when ignition temp was reached? Preignition in any engine is not healthy, think broken/burned ring lands and cracked piston skirts. The injector pump meters the size of the fuel shot dependant on throttle position up to governed rpm and preset maximum shot predetermined by the volume of air that the engine can pump, turbo engines pump more air(volume) because it is under pressure, therefore the engine can burn more fuel and make more power at a given rpm. The newer electronic engines use hydraulics (engine oil pressure) to multiply the fuel pressure in the injectors,(up to 40k psi), the electronics control timing and fuel shot volume(pulse width) dependant on inputs and feedback, the high pressure injectors atomize the fuel better for more complete combustion. Feedback loops (knock, intake temp and pressure, exhaust temp, throttle position, rpm are monitored and the processor adjusts timing up to 20 deg between cyls in fireing order to maximize fuel efficiency and power.

Oops I sure did ramble that time, back on track.

I have never played with propane injection on a diesel and as previously stated my concern would be detonation

Does anyone have any info on H2O injected diesels?

Look into a solinoid valve for your propane tank, Asco and Parker Hannifin come to mind as manufacturers to look at.