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Old 03-26-2019, 01:17 AM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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gas pedal error code hell - help!

Back to the ultimate source - you guys - for help again.

2000 3800 DT466e, AT 545 tranny, 120K miles.


Since I got her, she runs well, but kicks down as soon as you touch the gas, resulting in a jerky driving experience. Basically, the transmission modulator is kicking in as soon as I touch the gas, instead of after its pressed down a ways - like about half way.


Codes I have coming up are:

111 ECM No fault

131 APS/IVS - Accelerator Position Signal out of range LOW

123 MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) above spec. level at low idle

152 BARO - Barometric Pressure Signal out of range LOW

231 ATA common fault


Trying to solve it without dropping big bucks at the international dealers,so I have done the following:
  • Change gas pedal to a new one.
  • Checked voltages at gas pedal connector all in spec on all connectors at the plug.
  • Checked resistances from gas pedal connector to ECM all in spec.
  • Transmission Modulator appears ok.

So far, I have just left the modular unplugged. Shes slow to shift, but thats expected as the modulator is unplugged! ....but not sure if that could result in damage down the road.


So, my questions are:
  • What else should I check?
  • Does anyone have a wiring diagram from the transmission modulator to the ECM? suspect that a relay between the ECM and modulator is not working.
  • Also trying to track down a possible fuse that is linked to the gas pedal connector (maybe identified as F17, or G1, or H1).
  • And, is there another fuse panel besides the one in the middle of the dash. I dont have one on the outside under the drivers window, but just want to make sure Im not being a dummy and missing one that is squirreled away somewhere real odd.


Thanks in advance for any comments and advice.

Cheers

Douggy
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:18 AM   #2
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the pedal codes.. were they there before you swapped the pedal?



running modulator unplugged will destroy your transmission.. I trashed my 545 because the modulator was bad.. it shifts at low line pressure and destroys the trans.. hemnce why i now have an allison 1000 installed..



other than your kickdowns seemingly being early does the engine run and drive normally? or does it surge forward in the first few percent of your pedal travel?



does your modulator have voltage all the time even at idle? if you are key on engine off and plug in the modulator does it "snap" or click? if so then something isnt right..



the relays for the trans modulator is on the firewall.. there is a bank of 4 of them.. I think they are labelled on the firewall..



if you remove the modulator, its piston should be retracted. if you apply 12 volts to it, it will "snap" and the piston will extend.



there were known issues for the ECM being wacky with these electric modulators... WW williams here in columbus ohio came uo with a "fix" and it becamse somewhat defacto standard .. the fix was to disaconnect the modulator from the ECM and to wire a micro-switch and mount it to the pedal assembly so that the kickdown was at around 65-70% of pedal travel ll the time.. my bus had this mod installed in it... i can take pictures of it if you want to see it...



if you have access to navKal with a subscription, you can update the firmware in your ECM which supposedly hads a fix in it as well..



also make sure someone didnt jack with the wiring and instead of putting the micro switch in, they wired the modulator to the Off-idle switch circuit in the pedal.. if I remember correctly there are 4 wires going to the pedal..

VSS (+5 volts DC)
SIG (return voltage to the ECM from pedal)
GND(ground)
IVS (switch is closed when pedal is in rest position)...


I have the wiring diagrams for these circuits.. I may have posted some of them in my "The Redbyrd Transformation" thread.. if you need more i can look them up.

-Christopher
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douggy View Post
Back to the ultimate source - you guys - for help again.

2000 3800 DT466e, AT 545 tranny, 120K miles.


Since I got her, she runs well, but kicks down as soon as you touch the gas, resulting in a jerky driving experience. Basically, the transmission modulator is kicking in as soon as I touch the gas, instead of after its pressed down a ways - like about half way.


Codes I have coming up are:

111 ECM No fault

131 APS/IVS - Accelerator Position Signal out of range LOW

123 MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) above spec. level at low idle

152 BARO - Barometric Pressure Signal out of range LOW

231 ATA common fault


Trying to solve it without dropping big bucks at the international dealers,so I have done the following:
  • Change gas pedal to a new one.
  • Checked voltages at gas pedal connector all in spec on all connectors at the plug.
  • Checked resistances from gas pedal connector to ECM all in spec.
  • Transmission Modulator appears ok.

So far, I have just left the modular unplugged. Shes slow to shift, but thats expected as the modulator is unplugged! ....but not sure if that could result in damage down the road.


So, my questions are:
  • What else should I check?
  • Does anyone have a wiring diagram from the transmission modulator to the ECM? suspect that a relay between the ECM and modulator is not working.
  • Also trying to track down a possible fuse that is linked to the gas pedal connector (maybe identified as F17, or G1, or H1).
  • And, is there another fuse panel besides the one in the middle of the dash. I dont have one on the outside under the drivers window, but just want to make sure Im not being a dummy and missing one that is squirreled away somewhere real odd.


Thanks in advance for any comments and advice.

Cheers

Douggy
How much could you expect to pay at the dealers to fix this?
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:59 AM   #4
Bus Geek
 
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Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
dealers are usually aroun d $150 an hour at least around here thats what rush truck charges.. my guess is they might first look at TSI's for this.. maybe reflash the ECM if the customer asks...



does yours do the same?
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:14 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
dealers are usually aroun d $150 an hour at least around here thats what rush truck charges.. my guess is they might first look at TSI's for this.. maybe reflash the ECM if the customer asks...



does yours do the same?
I dunno - I just got my bus and I have it at a mechanics shop getting the fluids and filters changed, and I don't know yet how much all that is going to cost me.
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:24 AM   #6
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Thanks a lot for the checklist of items. Working on them over the next few days.

I have a voltmeter rigged up at the modulator. At idle there are 0 volts to it, as I hoped. As soon as I press the gas pedal the voltage at the modulator jumps to 12 volts.

Im thinking there is something a miss with the 5 volt feed (VSS) into the pedal sensor since this feed is shared with the BAP sensor, and that is also throwing an out a voltage low voltage ( code 123).

Im also going to chat with my local international shop about things, and hope to get a little free guidance, through I doubt that will work. But I do want to confirm the accelerator pedal I got is correct for the bus. There seems to be a few comments on the school bus fleet garage forum that notes that you need the EXACT pedal/sensor type or things go squirelly. The pedal assembly (with sensor) i bought was marketed as for a year 2000 3800 Dt466, though it was a Dorman version - Ill bounce that concern off them too.

Ill get to the bottom of this, and post the solution, so that anyone else searching the forum doesnt go through the headaches I have had!

Thanks again for the help. Have a good night yall!

Cheers

Douggy
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:18 AM   #7
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I recently replaced my ECM basically in my case for newer software and in that ECM program it has a setting that is clearly different throttle maps, so maybe there are different pedals out there. Which have different resistance curves.. one of the maps is an all in quick.. I asked navistar to explain this setting to me but they never responded. I neutral you should be able to press the pedal and have a progressive increase in engine rpm as you press down.. the pedal position essentially is like an RPM hold similar to your cruise buttons. If you press down 25% of the way and the engine races to the top then most likely the resistance value the computer sees is off.
A scan tool if you can get access will show the % of attack on the pedal as your press it. If you or another skoolie nearby have access to one?
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Old 03-28-2019, 12:17 AM   #8
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Thanks again Cadillackid for the advice.

I did put her in neutral and got a progressive increase in engine rpm the more I pressed the gas pedal down, as I hoped. There was no race away.

Off to talk to the local international shop tomorrow to see what they make of things.

I’m wondering if it’s an issue from the ECM to the modulator, since everything from the modulator to the ECM ‘seems’ ok.

Also want to quiz then on the gas pedal potentiometer resistances i should expect. The two pedals I have, old and new, seem to spit out different resistance value ranges as I press the pedals down.

cheers!
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Old 03-28-2019, 11:12 PM   #9
Mini-Skoolie
 
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The saga continues......

So I had a surprising helpful chat with the international shop here in New Orleans.

They said before I monkey around with any more gas pedal sensors or checking wires, or buying more gas pedal sensors, I should have my ECM reflashed ($300). They said that installing new pedal sensors (i.e., made since the bus was manufactured) may not be recognized by the old ECM software, and would therefore not recognize the resistance coming from the pedal sensor, and throw an error code. By reflashing the ECM any newer (made after 2000) sensor installed should be recognized.

If that doesn’t solve the problem they will help me further. I know the bus has been off the road for 2 years prior to me getting it 8 months ago, so the ECM software may be well out of date.

I’m going to get the ECM reflashed tomorrow (takes about one hour, they said). They also said I don’t even have to take the bus there, just the ECM, which makes things much easier, since I don’t want to take any risks driving without the pedal working properly.

For what it’s work, their school bus engineer said that driving without the modulator connected should not damage the transmission, she’ll just shift sluggishly. Either way, I’ll not take the risk.

I’ll hopefully get everything connected back up this weekend, clear the error codes, and see what happens. I’ll post the outcome.

Cheers!
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Old 03-29-2019, 03:26 AM   #10
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In my case with my electronic trans issues I Had to update to a newer ECM. In doing so it added a parameter for control type which affects throttle mapping. My guess is that’s the parameter you need. While greatly different engines the 444e and 466e use the same part number for ECM . The 1833558C2 has many newer settings and even my bus now has better cold weather manners. I first reflashed my original ECM which did fix a couple annoyances.. hopefully your ECM is new enough to get software to handle newer pedals. I would take the new pedal too so they can be sure to change the setting when they reflash. It’s not automatic, it needs to be set to your map. The newer software may also change the algorithm on when that modulator is called for.

There is more than one account online of trans shops showing how extended driving with a bad modulator ruins the trans. A trip or two won’t hurt it and driving part throttle won’t hurt it but it’s those up shifts getting up to speed where that sluggish shift as she calls it is the clutches slipping under high power low line pressure. I ruined a transmission in this manner.. driving around town won’t hurt it.

Good call on her part though to flash the ECM. That’s the first thing I did with mine when I had integration issues with my new trans.

Too bad you aren’t closer I could do it for you.
Christopher
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:06 PM   #11
Mini-Skoolie
 
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So, to follow up on my gas pedal issue....

It’s solved!!

I got the ECM reflashed. I took the ECM out of the bus and took it to the International dealer. They reflashed it for $150. They said that it would probably not fix the error codes I was having, but give it a try.

I hooked it back up to the bus, connected the new pedal that I had bought (and was not working properly), and it worked properly!! I now have to press the pedal down around 70% before the modulator on the transmission got its 12V signal to trigger it. This is what should of been occurring, but was not before the ECM was reflashed. I then cleared the active codes (procedure down below this posting) and the codes have not come back again!

Moral of this story is that reflashing the ECM, especially on a bus that has been out of service for some time (mine was 2 years) may make all sorts of issues you are having suddenly go away. This is likely to be especially true if you are installing/replacing newer probes and sensors on the engine.

So other info I gained on my journey, that may be helpful to other people are:

There is a gas pedal sensor troubleshooting document (google IK0800219 and the first search item that should come up is a pdf for troubleshooting the Acceleration Position Sensor/Idle Validation Switch (APS/IVS). This has the voltages and resistances you should get from the sensor, harness, and the plug attached to it.

The pedal sensor on a 2000 3800 DT466e AT545 bus is International part # 2594318C91. Costs around $260 +tax. The international pedal (with the sensor) was around $400.

A replacement off-brand pedal for my bus costs around $200 (Dorman 690-5014). I got it from Stockwise Auto. That is what I have installed, and she seems to work just fine.

Also, to clear the active diagnostics codes you do the following:

With the engine off and key removed, press the diagnostic press button down.
Turn the ignition to on, but do not start the engine.
Press the gas pedal down fully 3 (or 5 times) - got confusing info on that.
Turn the ignition to off
Then remove your finger off the diagnostic button.

You may need to do this a few times to clear the active codes, but it worked for me.

Hope this is helpful to anyone else that has this annoying issue. Aside from having the error codes, driving was so jerky it was dangerous, due to the wrongly firing transmission modulator. Also, I’m sure that the modulator firing at the wrong times was not healthy for the transmission. So, if you are having really jerky transmission response on a DT466e (and probably a DT444e) check when your transmission modulator is firing in relation to your gas pedal position.

Cheers all, and thanks to CadillacKid for his helpful posts!

Douggy.
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:42 AM   #12
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Congrats!!!
It feels good to conquer a gremlin!

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Old 04-05-2019, 09:27 AM   #13
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yeah!!! this totally rocks!!! you got luckier than I did, my computer didnt physically have the settings for the other type of throttles until I got a newer model ECM.. I reflashed mine and it did make the bus start up a little better in super cold weather ..



this is a great thread for those that need to replace those pedals..



water leaks are common around the cowl seal and the weater drips down on the gas pedal and brake pedal.. which tends to eventually trash the electronics within..
the Dorman replaceenbts are usually much cheaper than the dealer parts.
-Christopher
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