Grey Water Questions from The Noob

[KerryBeth1985]

To begin, you have my permission to start your response with "LOL, silly Noobie, it's like this..."

Now, assume everything I use in my home is biodegradable and that I filter large debris and then filter it again, now I have grey water that can be poured into a garden if I wanted. Also keep in mind that I am disabled. I cannot haul water or even be relied upon to be functional on a daily basis. So, think as if you had maybe one good day every two weeks wherein you could do some light labor. Also, keep in mind that I wish to both move my bus long distances on occasion, bookdock for 14-30 days, and could be in a variety of difference spaces from driveways to RV parks to the walmark parking lot... let's hope not but who knows ;)

Now to Grey Water Questions:

1) If I am near a grassy area, could I just attach a length of garden hose to pull away from the bus onto one a them sprinkler hoses and let the grey water sprinkle out into a wooded or grassy area with nice plants and soil? I'd love to set something like this up and just leave it while I was parked at said spot.

2. What about putting a kiddie pool on the top of the bus and evaporating grey water when it's summer time? (I know I would have to pump it up there.) I'm leaning away from this as I think even in the hottest sunny days I'm thinking more would go in, than out. Thoughts?

3. Shower Loop systems. Anybody used them? Thoughts?

Storing grey water and then dumping at a station I want to be my last resort. Whatever the set up, the grey water tank will be designed to hook up and dump OR to recycle resuse so I have options depending on where I am at.

Thank you for all your help!

[Oldmopars]

Start by watching this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjx9BqiW7IM

It has some great info about what people do with grey water at Burning Man. It may give you ideas about how to rid yourself of the water.
While I would have no problem watering the grass with it, if it was filtered, most people would frown on it if they saw you do it.

I suppose you could filter it and then let it "leak" out under the bus as you drive down the road. If it was a small leak, it would just get caught up in the turbulence behind the bus and evaporate as you drive. Again, some people will frown on this, but if you filter it, it would not hurt anything. Or leak it into the exhaust near the back and let it burn off as steam as you drive. Most new cars leak water out the tail pipe while they are running when cold, so I doubt anyone would think it odd.
All of the above are not endorsed by the EPA and use at your own risk.

[Carytowncat]

Welcome!

I take grey water to the trash one milk jug at a time.

Not a nad idea to pipe it to the tailpipe and let it vaporize, hmmm. Interesting approach.

Good luck!

[Elliot Naess]

Dump it on the ground? Only if you are in an inaccessible wilderness area.

Considering the severe drought here in California in recent years, I have used gray water from my house shower, bath-sink, and laundry to water plants. It stinks. A non-starter, I would say.

Since it was mentioned.... I do Burning Man, and one year I had camp mates with their own shower and gray water collection in a barrel. At the end of the week, the barrel was too heavy to move, so they called on good-old-Elliot-the-fix-anything-guy.

It was necessary to transfer some of the content to a second barrel.
HOLY ROTTEN ROADKILL, how it REEKED! Took half a bottle of RV chemical to bring it under control, somewhat.

So.... Could you treat your gray water to de-stinkify it? Certainly, but first you would want to research what that chemical (or bleach) would do to plants and such.
And you would still have the public perception problem, which is a very big deal, I can assure you.

Sorry about the negative tone. But I'm trying to spare you future trouble.

Oh... and.... Welcome to the forum!

[KerryBeth1985]

This is all very strange to me. Lemme see if I can explain. First, everything I have read has told me that you cannot store grey water for more than 24 hours. Is this the "stinky" water you are talking about? Was it stored close to or over that time? If so, then it is black water because the amount of bacteria have increased to a level similar to that of black water. Thus the smell?

I had watched the video on burning man which was great but in the desert everything evaporates amazingly fast. Although evaporation methods might be practical depending on where you are at the time.

Also, grey water (as long as the major debris like from a kitchen sink is meshed out as some of you mentioned and it's less than 24 hours old!!!) is perfectly legal and environmentally friendly and in fact healthy to pour into the ground. This is why campsites, etc. say to dump small amounts of grey water directly into the ground around trees, etc. trying to spread it out so it doesn't pool. Pooling creates a wonderful place for mosquitoes to breed = not good.

I decided that the moral of the story is that you either have to store grey water and dispose of it at a legal dump site OR you have to be in a place where you an properly feed grey water into the ground on a daily basis like a forest or large grassy area. It could not be anywhere near a river or body of water. I do not want to do the former and I am too disabled or might not be in a place to take advantage of the latter. SO....

I have elected to go with a loop system. It is a water system that will essentially loop the grey water through a filtration system that will return it to drinking water quality (much higher quality that tap water) and back out again so I'm reusing water and thus eliminating all issues of storage or recycling. Me and a friend are working on the schematics as we speak. We also want to be able to occasionally dump the filtered water and replenish with rain water from a catch system just because eventually it will lose nutrients. So, we don't plan to loop water for more than two weeks, one preferably. Also, the filter system will have the added cost of replacement filters, likely every year, and the power draw from small pumps and UV lamps (also replaced yearly). So, much to consider in our little adventure!

We are considering this to be the solution to our grey water issues. I am one of those nutty spiritual types who thinks my water should have excellent chi or it's not worthy of being called water. ;) anybody got a chi meter? ;) So, if you're interested in how it all goes, I would be glad to post schematics and other information in a future thread on loop systems. Also, if anybody has other questions on why or how we're doing this feel free!

PEAS OUT!

[Elliot Naess]

Yes. The gray water at my home collects in a tub before I open a spigot and fill a bucket to pour on plants. That tub is never dry. So even though the tub is filled and largely emptied every day or two, I expect something is "alive" in there.

And yes, the example from Burning Man was gray water that had accumulated for ten days or so. In the open scorching desert sun.

"Black water" is water and Stuff from a toilet.

I'm no biochemist, but there will usually be intestinal organisms in gray water, because we wash ourselves and our clothes with that water. Intestinal organisms are always everywhere, but it's a question of quantity. (Cloth baby-diapers are probably worst.)

Frankly, I'm amazed there has not been a major epidemic at Burning Man, what with all the Crap being spread with fountains -- literally fountains, in the case of the mechanical "evapotrons".

By the way, to evaporate water at Burning Man is a losing proposition. People keep trying, and failing. The event has a 30 - 40% annual turnover, which must be the reason people don't learn.
People keep building wide shallow evaporation ponds with black plastic sheeting -- which immediately turns light tan with dust, and evaporation slows to a trickle.

One year I had to stay behind and clean up such a failed pond after 25 people.
The procedure is to filter out all solids (with the shirt off my back, if necessary -- which I wound up doing, since every piece of cloth I had was quickly clogged.) Then treat the water with bleach -- letting it stand long enough to kill the harmful germs, and also long enough that most of the bleach has evaporate/converted so the bleach does not harm the natural life forms in the ground (oh, yes there are, even in the Black Rock Desert). Then sprinkle this widely so it does not form puddles or mud holes.
It took a full day -- dawn to dusk.

Now some good news: I am delighted to learn that "daily" gray water may be poured on the ground under the right circumstances.

As for re-using gray water -- looping.... It is doable, just as you say. And I have heard of a couple efforts to do this at Burning Man. It involved quite the "science lab" of fancy equipment. I have not heard any results.
If you can do it, I'm of course all for it. But there is hecka more to it than replacing a "swimming pool" filter once a year and shining a couple "grow bulbs" at it. For one thing, I seem to remember something about a big sand filter, to be refurbished frequently.
I encourage you to research this extensively, and thoroughly. One thing you can do is googling "ePlaya" plus the relevant search words. ePlaya is Burning Man's forum similar to this one, and it is huge. And please keep us updated.

Finally, and most importantly.... Thank you! for joining this forum and contributing very valuable discussion!

[KerryBeth1985]

awww. You're welcome, Elliot. Thank you for your input. And the reason grey water is technically black water after 24 hours is, generally speaking, the bacteria already in grey water will multiply to the point where it starts to rivel black water when it comes to bacterial contamination. Also be careful, grey water should never go ON plants but UNDER them. The soil and plant roots filter the grey water. There are a lot of rules on using grey water safely like no where near a living water source and making sure it doesn't touch the leaves, especially edible leaves, of plants.

And our loop system will be constructed with a "real" filter system LOL. I'll attach a video link to a shower loop. I am very environmentally conscious, only use biodegradable, organic products in my current home, etc etc. I am a bus conversion rookie but not a math and science rookie. Water is an important issue for me. How it is accomplished in the conversion will be nothing less than anal squared in spades. LOL. It has to be efficient, financially doable, environmentally friendly, as well as physically and spiritually healthy for humans and the planet. I won't settle for anything less.

When we actually get some schematics drawn up, I will be happy to share them, along with all the equipment used, etc. so that others can be free to copy our design should they choose.

Here's the link to the shower loop. In the conversion, it will be more complicated but this will give you an idea of where it all starts.

PS: so awesome that you stayed and helped out with all that Burning Man. I've never been but many of my friends go. So glad to hear the lengths you go to and the willingness to be so mindful of the environment and yes, i'm well aware of the little lives in the ground! I'm sure they appreciate your efforts, too! And thanks for the info on evaporation. Helpful. Also why we are going with filtration / loop instead.

PSS: Unlike in this video, I'm not going to use homemade filters or UV systems. I just don't trust it. I plan to use actual water filtration filters and UV filters made for the purpose. It's more expensive, but it's not debilitating. Several hundred dollars is worth it to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhOtC7YFAw

[Stu & Filo. T]

Originally Posted by Carytowncat

Welcome!

I take grey water to the trash one milk jug at a time.

Not a nad idea to pipe it to the tailpipe and let it vaporize, hmmm. Interesting approach.

Good luck!

Many yrs ago there was a RV waste system that pump black & grey thru the exhaust.

[KerryBeth1985]

LOL on your milk jug. if it's less than 24 hours old, and you are at least 50 feet from a river or lake or other water sources, and you don't let it pool, you can feed it to a tree instead. ha! seems a pain in the butt, but essentially it's not so bad.

and the tailpipe evaporation idea ain't bad at all really!

we'll let ya all know how the loop systems work out! thanks for the input!

[AlleyCat67]

So Kerry.... I haven't watched the video or anything yet, but from the description it sounds like you're building a largish-scale reverse osmosis filtration system, do I have that about right?

[KerryBeth1985]

Hello! It's not reverse osmosis though I can see why you would think that. RO is simply a specific type of filtration and RO water, although safe to drink, is not really healthy water. Also, the system is not "large" depending on what that means to you, of course. It would fit into an access wall behind a shower for instance. The filters will be mesh, carbon, and ceramic, followed by 2 UV filters. The filter line also includes a pump. We haven't hashed out all the details yet, but essentially the water goes down the drain, is filtered, and pumped back out again. This filter scheme will remove VOC, hormone disrupters, fluoride, chlorine, and other contaminants, as well as kill microorganisms. Unfortunately, it may also filter out much of the nutritional mineral content. We are investing more into this. There are ways of replenishing minerals but like I said, we are still hashing details.

The filter loop will have an initial cost of several hundred dollars as well as an annual maintenance schedule. It is just me on the bus. If you have a family or even a couple or shower often, it could be a heavier maintenance obligation. All of our filters will be certified filters made for that purpose and not "homemade" filters.

We are using PEX tubing for all the plumbing. A note to anyone interested, you cannot use any kind of plastic around UV lighting so the UV filter(s) have to be shielded to protect any plastic in the area of the light and only copper pipe go into and out of the filters. That is pricey but essentially you don't need much. We are simply going to build a small box for the UV filters, copper in and copper out of that box.

The filter system could be put anywhere as long as you have continual easy access really. The purpose for doing this is to completely eliminate grey water from the equation. Our goal is to eliminate grey water entirely when boondocking. We have lofty health and environmental goals. We do plan to rotate our water supply, however, as I mentioned before, as much of the nutritional value is lost in filtration. I suspect we will not use this water for drinking although we certainly could. I should also mention that I plan to live on the bus full time, so my considerations are dramatically different from someone who is, say, a weekend traveler.

I hope this gives you all the info you wanted. I actually have never seen or even heard of anyone else having a water filtration system on a bus. I find that strange as it's very common in Tiny Houses or any dwelling with a water catch system of course.

Later!

[AlleyCat67]

That could certainly be something to consider, like you it will be just me (and my furry travelling companion) on my bus. I could see setting up a system like this but slightly different..... one separate system to recycle sink and shower water, and keep reusing that for showering, dishwashing, what have you.... and a second system strictly for drinking/cooking water (though just a few 5 gallon jugs could probably do as well for that). Not sure what that would do in terms of maintenance interval for filters, etc.... though if you're not actually drinking the filtered water then you'd only have to swap it out maybe monthly, give or take, again depending on the size of the holding tanks, smaller tanks would of course require more frequent changing.

I'm thinking 50 gallon drinking/cooking tank, and 75 gallon non-consumption tank (shower/sink/dishwasher), should give about a month of boondocking capacity, at least where water is concerned.... of course YMMV.

Uh-oh my mind is running with this.... watch out......

By all means keep us posted on the progress of this, longevity figures, all that.....

[Dapplecreek]

Originally Posted by KerryBeth1985

...nothing less than anal squared in spades....

*THAT* is brilliant writing.

[KerryBeth1985]

AlleyCat,

Ha! you are so like me. My mind is totally chomping at the bit with this water thing and I love every minute of it. And I have a fur baby, too! Little doggie named Mindy. Anyway, back to water, YESSSSS i too have thought about the possibility of a multi-loop system. And yes, with every turn of the loop, you will lose water, either through drinking, boiling, evaporation, absorption, etc. And, yes, although theoretically you could do it til the well ran dry so to speak, I wouldn't. I would want to replenish the water supply periodically. That is where water/rain catch comes in.

I also have to design the entire system so that it can use hook-ups in areas where that is the "law", etc. Temperature is also an issue. Looped water is one temperature water. There are several bugs to be worked out and I'd be glad to keep people informed. I'm all for open sourcing information that is helpful to people and the environment

Also, check out these water heaters. They have tankless as well as small, under the counter, tanks (LINED WITH GLASS!!!) that would be perfect for loop systems in small spaces. I just love that the water is stored in glass and not plastic or metal! My eldest teases me from time to time about my love of water. She says if I could hug it, I would and she's probably right LOL.

But ya, if you have any epiphanies, certainly share! In the meanwhile, check out these water heaters:

http://www.ecosmartus.com/

[KerryBeth1985]

Ha! Dapple. funnie. and thanks. ;)

[KerryBeth1985]

here's their 4gal under the sink water heater. comes in several other sizes) again, i so love that they are glass lined. the housing, i think (?) is plastic, but they are lined with glass on the inside so no leaching. that is happiness. bit of an initial investment for these little babies, but i'm thinking it may be worth it.

4 Gallon Electric Minitank - ECO MINI 4 - EcoSmart

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by Stu & Filo. T

Many yrs ago there was a RV waste system that pump black & grey thru the exhaust.

And now we have Diesel Exhaust Fluid that is basically urea . . .

I love the idea of firing super-heated turds back at tailgaters. (That would be even better than when drivers of old Crown buses with Hall-Scott gasoline engines used to turn off the ignition while coasting, pump the gas pedal a few times, then turn the ignition back on - the resultant flame would come several feet out the exhaust, but it would also blow the entire muffler off if done too frequently.)

John

[Iceni John]

Kerrybeth, you mentioned using ceramic filters. Just bear in mind that they clog very quickly. I have used the classic old Katadyn portable ceramic water filter for several decades - it works very well, but it does need to be cleaned frequently if filtering buggy or slimy water. Some years ago I bicycled around India and Nepal and trekked around Annapurna, and used the Katadyn several times a day every day for three months. Even with a pre-filter it would clog when filtering "clean" water that evidently had micro-organisms in it, and one time when filtering water out of a cattle trough in Rajasthan it could barely manage one liter of water before clogging.

John

[Geo Jeff]

Every time I dump my tank I dump in bleach. It doesn't smell? Interesting enough when I wash dishes I always add bleach to the water as well. Worked in two many restaurants as a kid washing dishes I guess.

I just assumed this was safe enough to let go any where. There must a huge lack of dump stations in parts of the country. Up here in the northwest there every where.
Its raining so hard every day who would know if you open it going down the free way. At least urine is sterile so I don't feel bad tossing it out going down the high way. Set the bus on Cruise control and step back to the emergency door or window and let it flap in the wind in all its glory.
On a side note be fast about it these buses don't have cruise control like a tesla. some times there crossing a lane or two before you get back to your seat. Same thing happens to me when I go grab another bloody marry from the drink cart when I don't have a hostess on board. Which isn't very often I like Twinkies by the box.

[CanadianSkoolee]

While I was thinking about the plumbing for a Kit/Bath set up I thought would it be possible to use the grey water to flush the toilet with? Why use fresh water when you have a whole tank of grey water that just gets dumped anyways. Has anyone done this before?