Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-01-2015, 07:40 AM   #1
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Currently in Appalachia.
Posts: 148
Lightbulb Insulation brainstorming needed- what did you use and why?

I am in the planning stage for the Skoolie that has yet to be purchased. I plan to gut, insulate for a thermal break, and eventually raise the roof. Goal is 4-season full-timer, multiple climates, with winterized everything.

My question for all of you- what brand(s) and type(s) of insulation did you choose for each situation and why? If you can link to the specs even better!

In my research so far, I am finding that many are:
1.) highly flammable and the mfg 'requires' a flame resistant covering such as gypsum board for safety.
-I really don't want to add gypsum- is there an alternative?
-have you found a type/brand that is flame resistant without adding an additional barrier?
2.) several warn about potential wicking and/or absorbing water. This concerns me because of potential condensation when the exterior sheet metal is exposed to the elements- especially within the ribbing that has no thermal break to the exterior.
3.) for all those spray/pour foams that require moisture and air to cure- is that moisture then chemically bonded with the product 100%, or does is always contain moisture that is now in contact with your steel?
4.) pros and cons of foams (spray, HD & LD) especially those that use specialty gases in their manufacture or application process. I see some require an air barrier to prevent off-gassing and degradation of the product/R-value.
5.) shrinkage and expansion - I see many that have up to a 2% variation, and tests that find gaps between sheets caused when expansion damaged the edges with pressure, then cold contracted. This would totally defeat the a thermal bridge.

My concerns about fire safety stem from surviving a fire in a mobile home (started at a wood stove chimney outlet) The fire chief commended my quick emergency reactions, and told me that I only had 18 minutes before it would have been fully engulfed because of the construction materials. He said they didn't expect to find it standing when they arrived- I was 30 minutes from the station.

So- fire safety is very important to me. Been scared sh**less once, dont want to try for twice. I know there is no perfect solution in a skoolie, but I'd like to get as close as possible. What say you all???
__________________
~Pamela
SassyLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 09:35 AM   #2
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,939
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyLass View Post
I am in the planning stage for the Skoolie that has yet to be purchased. I plan to gut, insulate for a thermal break, and eventually raise the roof. Goal is 4-season full-timer, multiple climates, with winterized everything.

My question for all of you- what brand(s) and type(s) of insulation did you choose for each situation and why? If you can link to the specs even better!

In my research so far, I am finding that many are:
1.) highly flammable and the mfg 'requires' a flame resistant covering such as gypsum board for safety.

-I really don't want to add gypsum- is there an alternative?
-have you found a type/brand that is flame resistant without adding an additional barrier?

No gypsum is needed. It would be way to heavy. We have fire paints that add burn time.

Paint Specs - PinkShield

Firefree Coatings - Fire Resistant & Fire Retardant Non-Toxic Paints for Building Materials

HOME

2.) several warn about potential wicking and/or absorbing water. This concerns me because of potential condensation when the exterior sheet metal is exposed to the elements- especially within the ribbing that has no thermal break to the exterior.

Closed cell foams do not absorb water. This is not a issue.

3.) for all those spray/pour foams that require moisture and air to cure- is that moisture then chemically bonded with the product 100%, or does is always contain moisture that is now in contact with your steel?

Two part foams you speak of do not need air or water to cure.

Only single part foams in small spray cans like the brand "Great Stuff" need air to dry.

4.) pros and cons of foams (spray, HD & LD) especially those that use specialty gases in their manufacture or application process. I see some require an air barrier to prevent off-gassing and degradation of the product/R-value.

Single part foams that don't dry properly have chemicals that cause steel to rust.

5.) shrinkage and expansion - I see many that have up to a 2% variation, and tests that find gaps between sheets caused when expansion damaged the edges with pressure, then cold contracted. This would totally defeat the a thermal bridge.

This is not a issue. Living full time means full time heated. You won't even notice any difrence.

My concerns about fire safety stem from surviving a fire in a mobile home (started at a wood stove chimney outlet) The fire chief commended my quick emergency reactions, and told me that I only had 18 minutes before it would have been fully engulfed because of the construction materials. He said they didn't expect to find it standing when they arrived- I was 30 minutes from the station.

So- fire safety is very important to me. Been scared sh**less once, dont want to try for twice. I know there is no perfect solution in a skoolie, but I'd like to get as close as possible. What say you all???

What are you concerned about making the fire? Will you have a wood stove?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_ster View Post

Strapping (2x4's) are bolted or self tapping #14 screws to the vertical support ribs in the walls.

Cavity behind is filled with spray foam to flush with the surface of the strapping.

Rigid styrofoam is glued to the surface of the strapping. (still inside the bus)

Finish wall covering glues to the rigid styrofoam.

Now, everything on the inside of the bus like cabinets, ect, get screwed through the rigid styrofoam, into the 2x4 strapping.

This way no screw, or bolt from the inside ever touch the steel frame and skin of the bus.

I have 99% of the strapping done on my bus. Pics can be seen here.
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/th...ime-10138.html

This fellow member also strapped his bus with 1x4's. However, 1x4's split bad. I used 3/4 inch plywood, ripped into 3.5 inch strips, glued two layer together due to the plywood's superiority with holding screws without splitting.
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f27/ar...rust-8870.html

I hope this explanation helps.

Nat
Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 11:16 AM   #3
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 258
You should make that post your message signature, nat_ster.
taskswap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 01:29 PM   #4
Skoolie
 
juliol's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Monrovia California
Posts: 118
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Engine: 3208 turbo Cat
Rated Cap: 78
This has to be the best explanation on insulation, thank you Nat_ster.

J
juliol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 01:39 PM   #5
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Currently in Appalachia.
Posts: 148
Thank you Nat for taking the time to reply. I am very familiar with your method, and that is what prompted my post. I find no flaws in your theory, but I have been having a difficult time finding specific products to use, combine, and appropriate adhesives suitable for the various combinations I contemplate. (Adhesives are destined for another post...)

As I say, I am in research mode, and part of that is comparing available products for cost, quality, and how well they suit my needs. Have you decided on which you will specifically use?

Re: some of your specific answers, I asked them because I found products that DID have those properties, so I was looking for other options.(in particular one (commercial) spray-foam insulation that recommended spraying ceiling joists with water to help curing and adhesion -which will never be on 'my list' btw)

I am working on a phone right now, I will post some of my specific findings when I get to a computer.

Re:wood stove- I would love to include a wood stove. Will I? Remains to be decided. You can bet it will be fire-walled to the nth degree if I do though!

Some of the other concerns come from various builds I've seen, (which prompted me to look into the properties of the materials used) including replacing fiberglass in an engine cover with a flammable foam, and using a cheap foam with a low melting point on the undercarriage near parts that generate a lot of heat. Somehow using something stamped with "keep from fire and flame" or with temperature restrictions doesn't sit well with me.

I liked the idea of insulating the undercarriage, and realize that it is not a complete thermal break, but looking at the effective R-values of steel beamed constructions, a little is better than nothing I think - If there is a product that can tolerate the heat and moisture. Which, fwiw, I think is highly unlikely.
__________________
~Pamela
SassyLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 02:12 PM   #6
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Currently in Appalachia.
Posts: 148
I forgot- Nat- re: "Living full time means full time heated. You won't even notice any difference."

I'm not convinced of this yet. The temperature next to the steel exterior skin in direct sunlight at the peak of summer vs. the temperature of the same spot in the dead of winter is quite considerable. Granted, in your set-up this is spray foam on top and sides, and from what I've found shrinkage/expansion is less than some other products, but still exists. Which specific product would be best?

What about the floor though? Two layers of rigid foam. Cold winter outside of the steel on one side, heated radiant flooring on the other. That can be a big temperature extreme in those (4-6"?).

What about the temperature difference between an air conditioned interior and the surface temps when you use a wood stove?

I don't want to argue any point, I'm just trying to consider and understand the ramifications of all of them.
__________________
~Pamela
SassyLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 03:01 PM   #7
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,939
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
Your welcome folks.

I'm in Canada, so the products I have available to me will be different from what you can get.

I have used the white fire paint in the last link on a house I built for a customer. It was a wood finished garage, and the engineer made us paint the stuff on the interior of the entire garage.

The fire paint went on like Elmers white glue. I was told every thick coat was 20 min of burn resistance.

I'm real picky and a perfectionist. I like things just right.
However, the expansion and contraction of the Styrofoam you mention is so little, it's not even a concern for me. The steel the bus is made from will likely expand and contract at close to the same rate as the foam.

Phone your local spray foam contractors and ask them what kind of foam they spray. You only want closed cell, synthetic foams. No open cell, biodegradable types.

The spray foam I use here is done out gassing in 48 hours. 3 pound Closed cell Polyurethane foam is what we use in walls.

More info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_f...8insulation%29

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 03:17 PM   #8
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Currently in Appalachia.
Posts: 148
Here is a link with general qualities of different types of insulation. This link is just a general overview, and does not get into specifics by manufacturer.

Insulation Materials | Department of Energy

In particular, and mostly because I have seen these in a build somewhere, I have been comparing properties of:
-Molded expanded polystyrene (MEPS)
-Expanded polystyrene (EPS)
-Extruded polystyrene (XPS)
(Quick fact-EPS and XPS are both made from polystyrene, but EPS is composed of small plastic beads that are fused together and XPS begins as a molten material that is pressed out of a form into sheets. -those damn little beads...)
-Polyiso (polyisocyanurate) - a closed-cell foam that contains a low-conductivity, hydrochlorofluorocarbon-free gas in its cells.
-Polyurethane insulation - available as a liquid sprayed foam, flexible and rigid board - HD closed cell, LD open cell
Soy-based, polyurethane liquid spray-foam

Concerned about weight of this and the oxidation potential with metals:
Cementitious foam costs about as much as polyurethane foam, is nontoxic and nonflammable, and is made from minerals (like magnesium oxide) extracted from seawater.

On the definite NO list so far:
Phenolic foam (phenol-formaldehyde) currently only available as a foamed-in-place insulation - can shrink up to 2% after curing.
Urea-formaldehyde (UF) foam

Is there any other that should be consider in a mobile application?
__________________
~Pamela
SassyLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 03:22 PM   #9
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Currently in Appalachia.
Posts: 148
Thanks again Nat! I appreciate your time, effort and experience.
__________________
~Pamela
SassyLass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 05:12 PM   #10
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,939
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
I would not use the rigid, white bead type Styrofoam. It has almost not structural strength, and is less R value.

This is the stuff I use.

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
fireproof, hd foam, insulation, spray foam

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.