Insulation for Northern Winters

[ii_amnt]

My family and I are intending to live in our future bus full-time. We will be moving up to Michigan and possibly the Upper Peninsula after that. This means very cold winters. When we acquire our bus (still looking!), closing off some windows and insulating it is the number one priority. There are essentially three ideas I have for dealing with winter.

The first is closing off about half of the windows, welding them shut with sheet metal and grinding off rivets and putting in some (r-30?) rockwool insulation on all the walls and ceiling and recovering with wood. One concern I have is preventing condensation. Maybe put in some vapor barrier? I am not sure what order this would be (steel shell-vapor barrier-insulation-wood? steel shell-insulation-vaporbarrier-wood?).

The second is foam insulation on the floor with radiant heating. I hear you can do this with a wood stove, which leads me to...

The third idea, a good wood stove towards the middle-back of the bus (bedrooms are in the back). With some thermal mass around it, probably some bricks. Of course, I would put up a couple carbon-monoxide detectors.

I tried doing a search for people who live in their skoolie full time in the north, but didn't find much. Any advice?

[ol trunt]

Welcome--and don't use rockwool. Remember, rockwool can't be compressed and r-30 would require about 6" of between wall space. Since this will be your home, use the good stuff: spray in foam. Read up here on insulation etc. You'll save a lot of trouble later on. Jack

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by ii_amnt

My family and I are intending to live in our future bus full-time. We will be moving up to Michigan and possibly the Upper Peninsula after that. This means very cold winters. When we acquire our bus (still looking!), closing off some windows and insulating it is the number one priority. There are essentially three ideas I have for dealing with winter.

The first is closing off about half of the windows, welding them shut with sheet metal and grinding off rivets and putting in some (r-30?) rockwool insulation on all the walls and ceiling and recovering with wood. One concern I have is preventing condensation. Maybe put in some vapor barrier? I am not sure what order this would be (steel shell-vapor barrier-insulation-wood? steel shell-insulation-vaporbarrier-wood?).

The second is foam insulation on the floor with radiant heating. I hear you can do this with a wood stove, which leads me to...

The third idea, a good wood stove towards the middle-back of the bus (bedrooms are in the back). With some thermal mass around it, probably some bricks. Of course, I would put up a couple carbon-monoxide detectors.

I tried doing a search for people who live in their skoolie full time in the north, but didn't find much. Any advice?

Since you have the time to plan ahead- replace all the leaky non-insulated windows with nice modern RV units.
Closed cell foam insulation is the best thing for doing the ceiling and walls. I've thought about using Rockwool inside between rooms in interior walls due to its inability to burn.

[ii_amnt]

Jack, thank you for that. I narrowed my forum search to "spray foam insulation" and found some good stuff on that. I think I will hire a local contractor to do the spray foam. If I line all or every other rib with an extra inch or two of wood and have them spray in that, that should do well to prevent the metal ribs from conducting cold to the inside and give some extra room for more insulation.

Better windows did cross my mind, but I wasn't sure how to do that. Maybe I can find some rv window suppliers and find the size I need, all the windows will be framed in with wood.

Another thing would to add some kind of movable wall or sliding door or thick curtains to block off the very front drivers portion of the bus, lots of heat to be lost there.

[ol trunt]

Hey ia, if you go the curtain route try adding a layer of bubble wrap between the inner and outer surfaces. Trapped air is a good insulator.

[EastCoastCB]

Myself and some others go with a partition wall right behind the drivers seat. That way the bugs have two doors to get through!

[jazty]

Originally Posted by ii_amnt

I think I will hire a local contractor to do the spray foam. If I line all or every other rib with an extra inch or two of wood and have them spray in that, that should do well to prevent the metal ribs from conducting cold to the inside and give some extra room for more insulation.

+1 on that! The DIY spray foam kits are messy and wasteful. I wish I would have hired a pro to do the job.

[jazty]

Originally Posted by ol trunt

Hey ia, if you go the curtain route try adding a layer of bubble wrap between the inner and outer surfaces. Trapped air is a good insulator.

yessir.. I've been researching thermal fabrics to make curtains out of as a more elegant, albeit expensive solution. Here is a link with a discussion of a few options: http://www.sew4home.com/tips-resourc...-and-cold-cold

The ones with a foil center are seem like a good option.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by jazty

+1 on that! The DIY spray foam kits are messy and wasteful. I wish I would have hired a pro to do the job.

How much did you spend doing it yourself?
I don't mind a wasteful mess, I've got a ton of time on my hands.
I only ask because I want the benefits of spray foam but simply cannot afford to pay someone a ton of money to do it. Just weighing my options.

[jazty]

Well, I'll tell you this: I thought I could do the job with one kit. Kits are $600. One kit seemed about perfect after running through the online calculators. However, since it was my first time working with the stuff and you have to move fast so that the guns doesn't clog I ended up overspraying some areas and underspraying others. This resulted in the need to purchase a second kit, which put it over the price that a contractor could have done it.

Watch some youtube videos of people doing it. I did and upon seeing the tough time people were having and the inconsistent results (especially when spraying overhead) I thought, "well heck, these people are just morons! I can certainly do a better job!". Turns out, I didn't do a better job my first time through. The second kit filled in all the areas that were too low, though, and I was better at it having experience from the first kit. The thing is, I would have been happy never having the experience. The chances are I'll never do this job again myself.

Then, when it comes to trimming, I ended up with garbage bag after garbage bag of the trimmed product. I was essentially throwing away garbage bags of money.

Spray foam is a big business these days. Prices are competitive. A contractor will give you a quote and usually can't go over that quote. The DIY kits are a gamble and can really bite you in the ass. If your bus is mobile you may be able to shave some cash off of the quote by showing up at a job site where the contractor is already working.

[Malkieri]

I suspect that you could probably save further $$ if you offer to shave the overspray yourself. Remember in the old days TECHNOLOGY was expensive and LABOR was cheap, but today it is the opposite and LABOR/TIME is what the contractor is really charging you. So go on youtube and learn to make a Hotwire foam cutter, and spend your time shaving down the overspray.
Good luck!

[ii_amnt]

Originally Posted by Malkieri

I suspect that you could probably save further $$ if you offer to shave the overspray yourself. Remember in the old days TECHNOLOGY was expensive and LABOR was cheap, but today it is the opposite and LABOR/TIME is what the contractor is really charging you. So go on youtube and learn to make a Hotwire foam cutter, and spend your time shaving down the overspray.
Good luck!

I like that. Putting the money down to get it done right, but putting in some effort to save yourself some money. I was expecting to break a grand on insulation alone, looks like I may be better off than that.

[EastCoastCB]

The only quote I've had so far was something like two grand.

[jazty]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

The only quote I've had so far was something like two grand.

That sounds about right. Keep shopping around and see if any other contractors can beat that.

You have a full-size bus (or near full-size?) so - judging by my experience - for 3" thick insulation you'd be looking at 3 or 4 DIY spray foam kits ($1800 to $2400) and the nastiest mess you've ever seen in your life.

[EastCoastCB]

I'm going to have two inches of foam, maybe two and a half tops.

[jasonsulliman]

I am planning on an "arctic worthy" bus as well and my only concern with spray foam is its rigidity. If it hardens too much, won't it eventually leave big gaps by studs or crack?

The performance value compared to something like foam boards is good, but if you cut the boards yourself and spray foam into cracks, it could save you money and you wouldn't have the same threat of gaps and cracks.

I am planning on 4" on walls, ceiling, and floor. I am researching the ambient heating in the floor but thermosiphons are tricky because the floor is lower than the stack. You might get creative with copper piping around part of the engine to heat the water but then maintenance will be a huge PITA.

Keep us posted, and we'll do the same!

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by jasonsulliman

I am planning on an "arctic worthy" bus as well and my only concern with spray foam is its rigidity. If it hardens too much, won't it eventually leave big gaps by studs or crack?

The performance value compared to something like foam boards is good, but if you cut the boards yourself and spray foam into cracks, it could save you money and you wouldn't have the same threat of gaps and cracks.

I am planning on 4" on walls, ceiling, and floor. I am researching the ambient heating in the floor but thermosiphons are tricky because the floor is lower than the stack. You might get creative with copper piping around part of the engine to heat the water but then maintenance will be a huge PITA.

Keep us posted, and we'll do the same!

That is my backup plan. Foam spray in the cracks between sheets of foam.

[Malkieri]

This is going to sound a bit silly but if you are planning some sort of deck or P/V array on the roof, couldn't you insulate on the outside as well? Under the deck or solar panels do something like this:


Maybe cover the sides from the windows to the deck/panels with fiberglass or sheet metal for protection. This would provide a significant thermal break and could save some precious inches of headroom, while still getting 4"+ or insulation.

By the way this is in Nome, Alaska.

[jazty]

Originally Posted by jasonsulliman

I am planning on an "arctic worthy" bus as well and my only concern with spray foam is its rigidity. If it hardens too much, won't it eventually leave big gaps by studs or crack?

As long as the spray foam is uv protected it will remain spongy, not rigid. It is softer and more flexible than rigid foam board by a lot. In my case, I ran ribs the length of the bus and sprayed between. As the foam expands it really locks itself into that cage. It also adheres to damn well anything as long as it's dry and relatively clean (which makes cleaning it up a real pain in the arse).

[headinthetrees]

nice discussion going on here. In terms of the pro vs diy debate on the spray foam, its like that on a lot of things. The first time you do the job will be tough, you'll make mistakes, and you probably would have been better off hiring someone. But now you know how to do it, learned from those mistakes, and can do a better job next time. So if there's going to be a next time, might wanna try doing it yourself. If this is the only bus you'll ever convert, probably better to pay someone.