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Old 09-29-2016, 08:16 PM   #21
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 7,154
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
service-wise the DT-466E and the T-444E have roughly the same 'B' ratings.. getting ANY diesel hot is bad... a T-444E is a little more forgiving than a DT.. the DT being a wet-sleeve engine, you can damage the seals between the cylinder liners and the coolant at a temperature of 225-230.. (it may not happen the first time.. but repeated over-temp will harden those seals..)..

a T-444E can handle 230-240 and redlines at 250... usually by that time on a T-444E you would be dropping oil pressure and the fuel injection system would start to go inoperable.. I believe on most of them the audible temp alarm sounds at 230... even-so you dont want to run a diesel for long periods of time near its temperature red-line.. you want to keep it down around closer to its thermostat point.. 180 on most of them..

all of these international busses are fairly eas yto over-heat.. or fairly quick to overheat if something goes wrong.. mainly because of the "half a radiator".. half of the grill area is the turbo cooler, and half of it is radiator.. this makes for a small radiator.. so it has to flow well and your fan has to work perfectly or you have a tendency to over-heat...

many times these busses have been run only on in-town school routes.. so something liek a fan clutch that only operates at minimum speed.. or a partially clogged radiator never causes any issues...

then someone like us buys the bus and decides to run it clear across the country at highway speeds.. thats when over-temp issues are likely to show up... most times you can drive slower, or turn on all the heaters (heaters act like radiators).. and keep your bus temperature cool.. but you have to watch closely the first couple times you take a new-to-you bus out on the road...

be sure to add the ford 6.0 / International VT-365 to the list of engines to avoid... there are lots of discussions about that e gine on here... and that engine can be ver ygood if it is "bullet-proofed".. essentially repaired before it breaks... but for a novice I would say stay away from it.. I think it started showing up around 2003 or 2004 in School busses...

in brand new busses Cummins is the only one building engines for International chassis busses now.. Internatiuonal quit making their own engines last year.. I dont know if cat or mercedes still makes school bus engines or not...

you Can avoid the middle man and noit go to a dealer if you dont want to...

one, if you arent in a hurry you can go around to local districts and talk to the fleet managers.. (or email them, / the board members) and see if they have any busses they are retiring.. many districts reture busses in the spring each year.. some will do it now before winter sets in.. but while northern busses often have great mechanical abilities, they often have rust.. you can also bid online auctions... i never did it before.. my main bus came from a dealer.. and im sure I paid way more than i shoulve for it.. though the pricing on their services, like body work and painting were much less than quotes I got from other shops so i think my total value worked out Ok.....

last week i decided to put a low bid on a bus so i could learn how the online auctions worked... I watched at the end of the auction as the system bid me up once but still below my limit... and then holy-crap i won... and the bus seems pretty good... it was rather easy...

someone on here ahd posted a link of busses for auction.. I got on, placed a bid... watched on the screen as the auction went along.. and at other busses being bid on.. when I won, they sent me an invoice, I paid it by credit card... went online printed a temp tag... and headed to texas.. a guy handed me the keys.. I drove a couple miles away where I gave the bus a once over.. visual, fluids, look for leaks, etc. checked the tire pressures, and away I went... i was lucky i nthat a fellow forum member went and looked at the busses being bid on and said they looked good... you can find auctions local or close enough that on inspection day you can give a bus a once over.. you can start it, put it in drive, reverse, turn the wheels back n forth, listen to it, look for leaks, etc... and then choose one or two to bid on... just remember if you bid on 2 you could win 2...

-Christopher
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Old 09-29-2016, 08:20 PM   #22
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 7,154
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
ha! I recently ran into that with an A/C guy... young guy.. pretty sharp... he is a friend of a friend and was on a call for a down unit... he knew I used to be in the HVAC field and still do a ton of work with it.. calls me in distress,,, "cant get this unit to run..."... "computer says Low-pressure circuit open"...'I replaced the switchm the circuit board, updated the firmware, ran new wires... unit still wont run'...

ME: 'have you put s set of gauges on it to see if it has any freon?....'
HIM: - calls me back 2 hours later 'uhm.. i found a leak by the TxV.. fixed it, added freon, and the unit runs perfectly'.....

sometimes check the simple stuff first..

-Christopher
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Old 09-29-2016, 09:19 PM   #23
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird FE
Engine: 5.9 Cummins
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
service-wise the DT-466E and the T-444E have roughly the same 'B' ratings.. getting ANY diesel hot is bad... a T-444E is a little more forgiving than a DT.. the DT being a wet-sleeve engine, you can damage the seals between the cylinder liners and the coolant at a temperature of 225-230.. (it may not happen the first time.. but repeated over-temp will harden those seals..)..

a T-444E can handle 230-240 and redlines at 250... usually by that time on a T-444E you would be dropping oil pressure and the fuel injection system would start to go inoperable.. I believe on most of them the audible temp alarm sounds at 230... even-so you dont want to run a diesel for long periods of time near its temperature red-line.. you want to keep it down around closer to its thermostat point.. 180 on most of them..

all of these international busses are fairly eas yto over-heat.. or fairly quick to overheat if something goes wrong.. mainly because of the "half a radiator".. half of the grill area is the turbo cooler, and half of it is radiator.. this makes for a small radiator.. so it has to flow well and your fan has to work perfectly or you have a tendency to over-heat...

many times these busses have been run only on in-town school routes.. so something liek a fan clutch that only operates at minimum speed.. or a partially clogged radiator never causes any issues...

then someone like us buys the bus and decides to run it clear across the country at highway speeds.. thats when over-temp issues are likely to show up... most times you can drive slower, or turn on all the heaters (heaters act like radiators).. and keep your bus temperature cool.. but you have to watch closely the first couple times you take a new-to-you bus out on the road...

be sure to add the ford 6.0 / International VT-365 to the list of engines to avoid... there are lots of discussions about that e gine on here... and that engine can be ver ygood if it is "bullet-proofed".. essentially repaired before it breaks... but for a novice I would say stay away from it.. I think it started showing up around 2003 or 2004 in School busses...

in brand new busses Cummins is the only one building engines for International chassis busses now.. Internatiuonal quit making their own engines last year.. I dont know if cat or mercedes still makes school bus engines or not...

you Can avoid the middle man and noit go to a dealer if you dont want to...

one, if you arent in a hurry you can go around to local districts and talk to the fleet managers.. (or email them, / the board members) and see if they have any busses they are retiring.. many districts reture busses in the spring each year.. some will do it now before winter sets in.. but while northern busses often have great mechanical abilities, they often have rust.. you can also bid online auctions... i never did it before.. my main bus came from a dealer.. and im sure I paid way more than i shoulve for it.. though the pricing on their services, like body work and painting were much less than quotes I got from other shops so i think my total value worked out Ok.....

last week i decided to put a low bid on a bus so i could learn how the online auctions worked... I watched at the end of the auction as the system bid me up once but still below my limit... and then holy-crap i won... and the bus seems pretty good... it was rather easy...

someone on here ahd posted a link of busses for auction.. I got on, placed a bid... watched on the screen as the auction went along.. and at other busses being bid on.. when I won, they sent me an invoice, I paid it by credit card... went online printed a temp tag... and headed to texas.. a guy handed me the keys.. I drove a couple miles away where I gave the bus a once over.. visual, fluids, look for leaks, etc. checked the tire pressures, and away I went... i was lucky i nthat a fellow forum member went and looked at the busses being bid on and said they looked good... you can find auctions local or close enough that on inspection day you can give a bus a once over.. you can start it, put it in drive, reverse, turn the wheels back n forth, listen to it, look for leaks, etc... and then choose one or two to bid on... just remember if you bid on 2 you could win 2...

-Christopher
WOW Christopher - thanks very much. There is a lot of good information in that reply!

I'll definitely be printing a lot of stuff off from these threads and keeping it for reference.

I hope things turn out really well with your new bus!



Charles
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Old 09-29-2016, 09:36 PM   #24
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 11,131
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Ward/AmTran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 78
Ha, my bus has a recently replaced radiator and since it isn't split, mine runs nice and cool.
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Old 09-30-2016, 07:40 AM   #25
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 7,154
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Ha, my bus has a recently replaced radiator and since it isn't split, mine runs nice and cool.
where is your turbo cooler?
-Christopher
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Old 09-30-2016, 03:12 PM   #26
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 11,131
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Ward/AmTran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
where is your turbo cooler?
-Christopher
I don't have one.
Lots of DT's don't. High hp models have them, I'd imagine. I've got 195 hp.
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Old 09-30-2016, 03:35 PM   #27
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird FE
Engine: 5.9 Cummins
Hey folks,

I have been trying to do some more homework on all this engine vs engine and apply it to actual buses I am looking at.

IF I am reading things right (and that is subject for review!), then when I look at a 2002 FE Bluebird with a Cummins 5.9, it should be rated as:

235 HP @ 2700 RPM and 460 Lb/Ft @ 1400 RPM

Then if I compare that to a 1996 Thomas with an International T444E, that bus should be rated as:

210 HP @ 3000 RPM and 425 Lb/Ft @ 600 RPM


These numbers are based on what I could find online for those year/models.

So when I look at the two above, what exactly am I seeing?

It looks as if the Cummins is delivering more HP at lower RPM, but the T444E has more peak torque at a lower RPM.

So how does this translate into real life meaning for a project like mine?

Thanks for the help and advice - still trying to get my head around all the numbers and what they mean to an old fart like me!

Charles
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Old 09-30-2016, 03:48 PM   #28
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 7,154
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
you really have to go by VIN... these engines were made in those HP ratings but ultimately when a chassis was SPEC'd it could be ordered with different variants on the engine..

take the DT-360 in my 1991, it was made in a 160 HP, a 185 HP, and a 195 HP in that year... mine is 185..

in my 2000 wit ha T-444E they made that engine in a 175, 195, and I think 210 HP variant... mine is 195... it was stamped on my valve cover on that T-444E..
so if you can talk to the person selling the bus you can sometimes get them to take a picture of the stamp under the hood that shows the HP of that actual bus...

they were typically ordered based on purpose and budget .. you might find the high horsepower busses more in the rocky mountin areas where they had to climb hills.. vs completely flat areas like the plains, midwest and florida...

or you could have schools that bought field-trip or Team-sports busses that they ran on the highway so they ordered the bigger engines and maybe over-drive / taller rear gears...

if a bus is on an international Chassis, I believe you can call an International dealer with the VIN (if the seller will giveit to you) and you can find out the details of that bus..

I dont know if you can do that with the freightliner, ford, or GMC chassis..

-Christopher
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Old 09-30-2016, 04:03 PM   #29
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird FE
Engine: 5.9 Cummins
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
you really have to go by VIN... these engines were made in those HP ratings but ultimately when a chassis was SPEC'd it could be ordered with different variants on the engine..

take the DT-360 in my 1991, it was made in a 160 HP, a 185 HP, and a 195 HP in that year... mine is 185..

in my 2000 wit ha T-444E they made that engine in a 175, 195, and I think 210 HP variant... mine is 195... it was stamped on my valve cover on that T-444E..
so if you can talk to the person selling the bus you can sometimes get them to take a picture of the stamp under the hood that shows the HP of that actual bus...

they were typically ordered based on purpose and budget .. you might find the high horsepower busses more in the rocky mountin areas where they had to climb hills.. vs completely flat areas like the plains, midwest and florida...

or you could have schools that bought field-trip or Team-sports busses that they ran on the highway so they ordered the bigger engines and maybe over-drive / taller rear gears...

if a bus is on an international Chassis, I believe you can call an International dealer with the VIN (if the seller will giveit to you) and you can find out the details of that bus..

I dont know if you can do that with the freightliner, ford, or GMC chassis..

-Christopher

Thanks Christopher.

I see that the plot thickens...

This reminds me of a real world scenario from years ago.

A group came into my brother's computer store nearly every day for three months asking about this spec and that spec on computers for a network.

My brother patiently gave them all their answers and waited to see what they would buy.

One day the head person came in and said that they were ready to order.

My brother asked them what they had decided on.

The guy told him: "Whatever you think is best for us!".

My brother was gob smacked and stood for a few moments without saying anything.

Then he asked the guy "For three months now you have came in here nearly every day and asked me countless questions about this and that. All of them I answered and researched for you, so WHY NOW are you saying that you will simply take my suggestions?".

The guy smiled and said "We are in the mental health business and we finally realized that all this research was driving US crazy. So we just decided to follow your lead, keep our sanity and hope for the best!".


I think I am beginning to know how they felt!



Charles
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Old 09-30-2016, 04:49 PM   #30
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 34
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird FE
Engine: 5.9 Cummins
But back to the original question for a moment.

If the two engines did spec out as stated above (and let's say they had the same transmission - a 545 in this case), what does that mean to a project like mine?

I'm trying to get a feel on how to evaluate the two (or similar ones).

Thanks!

Charles
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