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Old 04-24-2006, 01:42 PM   #1
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Shoreline connection

I am starting simple with my conversion... and one of the first things I want to do is have some functioning outlets inside that can be connected via shoreline to a campsite hookup.

Do I need a panel box or will some sort of pigtail do the trick? I am electrically challenged, so any info appreciated. Don't assume that i know the basics of wiring...

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Old 04-24-2006, 04:32 PM   #2
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electrical wireing is very simple, but if done incorrectly can be dangerous. There are a lot of different opinions when it comes to "the safest" way to do the electrical in a skoolie. Most of the differing opinions revolve around what to do with the 3rd wire also called the ground.

All of your appliances that run off of house current (120 volts AC) only need 2 wires to work. They are usually colored: one white, one black. If you hook those wires up backwards, everything still works just fine. Most appliances also have a 3rd wire, usually green. This is the ground. All appliances work without this wire, and there is much debate about what to do with it in a bus. In your house, it is connected to a copper rod that is literally driven into the ground. In the case of a short circuit, the ground should give the current a path to follow, rather than electrocuting the user. Electrocution hazard really isn't that great from 120 volts. Not that it is pleasurable getting "poked" by hosehold current, but the chances of dying are very slim. That being said, the most dangerous path for the current is in one hand and out the other since the electrical current will pass through the heart and could potentially interrupt the intrinsical impulses of the heart muscle...that's obviously bad, but is very unlikely. I've been shocked dozens of times with 120 volt current....you would think i would have learned my lesson by now.

if you hook the white and black wires up backwards, the appliance will continue to work, but the "hot" wire might connected to a less desireable place inside the appliance, especially if it is metal ie: referigerator and would increase the chance of getting a shock while touching another metal surface and the frige at the same time.

one short little digression: (usless trivia) is that toasters only have 2 wires. They never have 3. The 3rd wire would increase the chance of being poked by the 120 volt current if you were to stick a metal object inside while the toaster was on.
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:03 PM   #3
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lets break the bus 120 volt electrical system down so it is very basic.

So you want to plug in an extention cord that feeds power to some outlets in the bus. That is no different than plugging in a power strip (or surge protector) it's just that the outlets in your case will be more spread apart.


Someone will correct me if i'm wrong....To get your polarity correct, look at the outlet. you'll notice that the standard plug from any appliance usually has one spade that is bigger than the other. The smaller one should be connected to the black wire on the outlet. In this photo, the bigger spade is on the right



once you've ran all the wires from your various outlets to one common place, you can now find a an extention cord that is suitable to run all the appliances in your bus.



I would suggest at least 12 guage, and no longer than 25 feet. Cut the female end off of the extention cord, and connect the white/black/green wires inside the cord to the proper colored wire inside your bus.

Does that make good sense? A good place to keep the cord when not in use is wound up inside the battery box, if there is room.

As for connections, i do not like wire nuts.
They are the most common means of connecting 2 solid core copper wires.



I think that in the skoolie enviroment it is far better to solder each of the wires together.



Buy a good soldering iron for at least 20 bucks, you'll regret it if you buy a cheaper one.

feel free to ask questions
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:10 PM   #4
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i'm sure lots of people have suggestions on safety. I didn't go into great detail on this subject as everyone has their own opinion.

This setup will work, and will be no more dangerous than running an appliance off of an extention cord...since that is in fact what you are doing.

I think that for an added measure of safety, connecting all the circuits in the bus to a GFI is a cheap simple and effective method to keep everyone safe from electrical shock.

A GFI is a special outlet that shuts off current within 50 milliseconds to a circuit in case of a short circuit. They are required by the electrical code for outlets in a bathroom or outside. You can protect all of the electrical outlets in your bus with just one GFI, but it's important to make sure you wire it properly. There are good directions that come with the unit. Here is aphoto of a GFI

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Old 04-24-2006, 09:56 PM   #5
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I used standard house wire & house outlets in my bus. I have 5 outlets & 5 florescent lights (which each have outlets built into them) all on one circuit with the male end going into the battery box. I used standard house type wire nuts wrapped in electrical tape. I don’t have a GFI outlet or a circuit breaker onboard, I figure whatever I’m plugged into will. I wouldn’t be able to run multiple hi draw devices at the same time like a microwave & a vacuum cleaner, but the bus is a small enough area that I can keep an eye on that easily. With all my low wattage florescent lights on at the same time it draws less than 100 watts total.

I also have my inverter in the battery box right next to the batteries, so going down the road I just plug it in & I can run my "stuff" while on the road. My inverter even runs my mini fridge while driving.



This photo was taken before I had the inverter or trickle charger hooked up. Also I have newer batteries thanks to one of them shorting out & spewing fart smelling acid everywhere... but that’s another story.

When I get to wherever I'm camping I unplug from the inverter, shut it off & plug into an extension cord. I also have a little T where the extension cord meets the bus power cord that is plugged into a trickle charger. When my bus is parked next to the garage that’s how it’s hooked up.
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:37 AM   #6
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Phil! You're absolutely the scariest dude I've ever met! That mess in your battery compartment is enough to give me heart failure. Please tell me you staged that photo as a gag! If not...shame on you. You're free to kill yourself but you owe it to anyone coming aboard your bus to warn them of the hazardous conditions! I'm not picking on you...really! But that's just a mess in there and no one should copy any part of it. Especially new folks here that are trying this stuff out for the first time. AC power is nothing to mess around with...it'll kill you if not done right.

BTW...I love the paint job!
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:51 AM   #7
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Jody...

Buy a book or two about bus conversions or even marine electrical systems. They're not all that expensive and provide a wealth of information. There's only so much we can cover here and you need to become familiar with the basics before answers and ideas here will make much sense. You also need to learn enough to make your own descisions about what might or might not work for you.

I design electrical system for boats and yachts as part of my work. I'm a safety nut and fussier than most but honestly you shouldn't rely on my answers or anyone else's here without checking things out before implementing them. In the end it's your bus and you and your family's safety that's on the line; you have to make sure you're absoutely comfortable with each decision you make.

I'll always err on the side of safety and conservatism but that doesn't make it the best choice for everyone or the only way to do it (and it's never the cheapest way).

Just because you read it here doesn't make it "OK"; from me or anyone else.
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Old 04-26-2006, 10:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Lampman
Phil! You're absolutely the scariest dude I've ever met! That mess in your battery compartment is enough to give me heart failure. Please tell me you staged that photo as a gag! If not...shame on you. You're free to kill yourself but you owe it to anyone coming aboard your bus to warn them of the hazardous conditions! I'm not picking on you...really! But that's just a mess in there and no one should copy any part of it. Especially new folks here that are trying this stuff out for the first time. AC power is nothing to mess around with...it'll kill you if not done right.

BTW...I love the paint job!
Would you please elaborate on what part is deadly in my setup? All I see is an extesnion cord plugged into a male end of an electral wire, which goes to some outlets & lights inside the bus. Nothing more than one extensoin cord plugged into another. Whatever I'm plugged into will have some sort of ckt braker which would trip if thers a problem.

What mess are you talking about? Those jumper cables are just sitting in there, there not connected to anything. Anyway thats an old photo, this is how the set up looks now.



We got some paint on the stuff in there when we painted the bus. It still needs to be tidy'd up but I wouldnt consider it deadly.

As I recall Jody was looking for simple functioning outlets inside that can be connected via shoreline to a campsite hookup. Other than running extension coards all over the bus, it wouldn't get much simpler than what I've done. If you have a better simple set-up solution please post it.

I'm not going to get into an arguement here but if your going to say stuff like that about my set-up at least say whats wrong with it.

You must be kidding me; thats the deadlyist & scarriest set up you've ever seen & I should warn others who enter my bus? I've seen way worse, & I've never had a problem with my setup.

Edit* here I tidied it up a little bit, the inverter has rubber washers so it has about a 1/8" gap between it & the wall its mounted on

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Old 04-26-2006, 11:24 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Lampman
Phil! You're absolutely the scariest dude I've ever met! That mess in your battery compartment is enough to give me heart failure. Please tell me you staged that photo as a gag! If not...shame on you. You're free to kill yourself but you owe it to anyone coming aboard your bus to warn them of the hazardous conditions! I'm not picking on you...really! But that's just a mess in there and no one should copy any part of it. Especially new folks here that are trying this stuff out for the first time. AC power is nothing to mess around with...it'll kill you if not done right.

BTW...I love the paint job!
I've seen Phill's bus... He did good quality electrical work. Come to think of it, I helped him with some of it! I am not afraid to be in it, and that battery box only looks dangerous. I trust his work. I am very well versed in elecrtical and electronics work. This is my first hand account and educationally weighted opinion.
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:09 PM   #10
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Also, get a circuit tester for about $5.00. Get the kind that has LEDs that indicate what the problem is with a circuit (if there is one).

Besides the fact that my plumbing didn't leak when I turned it on...

And besides the fact that my gas line didn't leak either...

I was very proud of the fact that when I threw my 60 Amp breaker for the first time, there were no problems with any of my electrical outlets! The circuit tester will give you some peace of mind when you are done with the wiring (in addition to pinpointing troubles).
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:06 PM   #11
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THANKS for all the helpful information. I am still in 'remove the seats' mode, and scheduled to take the bus into a mechanic in the morning for a once over, but once i get past that stuff, it's time for some flooring and basic wiring.
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Old 04-27-2006, 11:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Lampman
Phil! You're absolutely the scariest dude I've ever met! That mess in your battery compartment is enough to give me heart failure. Please tell me you staged that photo as a gag! If not...shame on you. You're free to kill yourself but you owe it to anyone coming aboard your bus to warn them of the hazardous conditions!
I now feel scared for my life! You should have warned me Phill!!

ok, all sillyness aside

what are you talking about les? I think phill has a great setup
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:30 AM   #13
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OK, I'll tell ya!

Looking at the first photo it looks like the orange extension cord just disappears into hole in the sheet metal with no protection for the cord (a direct short waiting to happen). In the lower right the cord looks burnt (like the insulation overheated) and what's with all the electrical tape at the plug? If the insulation is broken loose there the cord should be replaced.

The grey cable appears to be solid wire (not stranded) and it too disappears into an unprotected hole; it has much less abrasion resistance then the extension cord and will move around consideraly more due to its construction.

I did realize the jumper cables were just sitting there.

The holes really need to be grommeted and the wires need to be secrued in place so they don't move around constantly while the bus is in motion.

I see nothing in your setup up that looks as though it's designed or rated for an explosive atmosphere; which a battery compartment must be considered if it has wet cell lead-acid batteries in it (which yours appear to be). When the batteries outgas from charging and if a spark occurs from the equipment you've placed inside the compartment it could be an interesting situation to say the least.

You need a main breaker and an AC panel in the bus unless you're running a single appliance on an appropriately rated extension cord. The reason the breaker exists is to protect the wiring "downstream" of it. If you're plugged into a typical 30-amp service at a park that breaker protects the 30-amp shorpower cord to the bus; it does not protect the wiring inside the bus or the small loads on those circuits. It's entirely possible to create a nice fire (or shock hazard) on substantially less than 15-amps that would NEVER trip the shorepower service breaker. Each circuit inside the bus needs a correctly sized breaker installed to protect it. That's why when you open the breaker panel in your house there are lots of breakers; not just one big one.

I spent several years as an electrical fire investigator; I am unfortunatley intimately familiar with what starts electrical fires and/or results in shocks. Poor connections and loose wires lead to high resistance situations which in turn lead to heat which damages insulation and can eventually lead to a short and fire.

You can get angry and defensive because I point these things out; that's your perogative but it's not why I posted the information and wasn't my intent (and still isn't). The reason I spend the considerable time I do when I post is so that folks can end up with an electrical system that meets their requirements and is safe. Yours is not.
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:41 AM   #14
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Thanks Les. Do you know of a good referance for how to appropriatley size an AC breaker to any given area or appliance group? Hopefully somthing online. I took a peak however I would like a referance from somone who seemingly knows what they are talking about.

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Old 04-28-2006, 10:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
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OK, I'll tell ya!

Looking at the first photo it looks like the orange extension cord just disappears into hole in the sheet metal with no protection for the cord (a direct short waiting to happen). In the lower right the cord looks burnt (like the insulation overheated) and what's with all the electrical tape at the plug? If the insulation is broken loose there the cord should be replaced.
Ok let me start here, the orange cord that disappears into the unprotected hole should be corrected, as that is just a bare metal hole, with no grommet. That cord stays plugged into the garage (doesn’t travel with me) & therefore doesn’t bounce around or chafe against the side.

The brown you see on the cord is not from being burnt, the cord is dirty because when I pull the bus out I unplug it from the bus & toss it in the dirt & run it over on my way out.

The tape is on there because the outer insulation started to separate from the plug. The insulation on the inner wires never wore through. I don’t see that as a problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Lampman
The gray cable appears to be solid wire (not stranded) and it too disappears into an unprotected hole; it has much less abrasion resistance then the extension cord and will move around considerably more due to its construction.

The holes really need to be grommeted and the wires need to be secrued in place so they don't move around constantly while the bus is in motion.
This hole does have chafing protection; it is the same hole that my battery cables run through. I do agree that the wire should be secured so it doesn’t chafe on the side, thank you for pointing that out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Lampman
I see nothing in your setup up that looks as though it's designed or rated for an explosive atmosphere; which a battery compartment must be considered if it has wet cell lead-acid batteries in it (which yours appear to be). When the batteries outgas from charging and if a spark occurs from the equipment you've placed inside the compartment it could be an interesting situation to say the least.
Interesting point, although I had a case such as this about a month ago where one of my batteries was spewing acid & sulfur gas everywhere. Luckily I had no explosions. I did replace both batteries with new ones, so I'm not too concerned about them leaking. The compartment has to big holes in it so I would think it has enough ventilation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Lampman
You need a main breaker and an AC panel in the bus unless you're running a single appliance on an appropriately rated extension cord. The reason the breaker exists is to protect the wiring "downstream" of it. If you're plugged into a typical 30-amp service at a park that breaker protects the 30-amp shorpower cord to the bus; it does not protect the wiring inside the bus or the small loads on those circuits. It's entirely possible to create a nice fire (or shock hazard) on substantially less than 15-amps that would NEVER trip the shorepower service breaker. Each circuit inside the bus needs a correctly sized breaker installed to protect it. That's why when you open the breaker panel in your house there are lots of breakers; not just one big one.
This would certainly be the case if I lived in my bus, however I only use it for camping trips & such. The outlets are only there so I don’t have to run extension cords everywhere. I don’t run things off it the same as I would in my house. I see what you’re saying about the breaker not tripping the same as a house breaker as it is rated 2 times the load capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Lampman
You can get angry and defensive because I point these things out; that's your perogative but it's not why I posted the information and wasn't my intent (and still isn't). The reason I spend the considerable time I do when I post is so that folks can end up with an electrical system that meets their requirements and is safe. Yours is not.
Oh I'm not angry now that you've pointed out what I need to correct. I was angry when you said I've created a death trap that I should be ashamed of, without pointing out what's wrong with it. I appreciate your concern with others trying to duplicate faulty parts of my setup, but if your intentions are to educate, then please focus more on that and less on criticizing.
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:39 AM   #16
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Wiring diagrams

Okay back on track. I have a 15,000 BTU roof mounted AC and a RV guy told me I would do better with a 30 amp shore connection because of the high amperage needed to fire it up. I thought I would also put a 15 amp connector in case 30 amp wasn't available. I also have a 3000 watt generator. And no clue how to wire the stuff. I have a 55 amp converter with two 30 amp fuses for the DC side which plugs into an outlet I guess from the shore or generator.

My question is can the 30 amp, the 15 amp and the generator all go to one junction box and be connected together with an outlet to plug in the convertor, or should they be separate? Should the AC, then, go to a circuit breaker box like in a house?

On the DC side the other end of my converter just has black and red posts. I assume these go to the battery isolator and the isolator to the bus and house batteries. Where does the house DC lights and outlets tie in here? Do they need a circuit breaker box, or can they all just run in series? I want the lights to run in parallel, I guess, so that one switch can go to one light.

I guess I am electrically challenged, but would like to get the AC installed since I have replaced all the windows with sheet metal at this stage of the game and it gets a bit toasty.

Thanks for any help here.

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Old 05-04-2006, 01:43 PM   #17
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electrica

Okay, Here's a stab at this. Now this is the schematics (on paper still) for my bus. I am using a tripp inverter which is able to act as a converter and has a 75 amp charger on it. So it will be a bit different.

Lets start with power sources or where power enters your bus.

1) Shore power 30 amp. If you are going with a 30 amp setup which can handle your massive ac unit and you have access to only 15 amp, you can get an adapter that plugs into the end of your shore power cable for very little money. However be aware you have access to only 15 amps. Not enough for your ac.

2) Generator. Either a 15 or 30 amp connector. If it is perminently mounted instal the appropriate size extension cord that runs from the geni to where your shore power cable connects with the power system. Be sure to have the appropriate ends on the cable. So lets assume your geni only has 15 amp outputs (as mine does). The geni end has a 15 amp plug, then other end has a 30 amp plug.

next step. You can either have a manual plug, like vonslat (i think) has in his unit. This is a fool proof system to ensure you do not have multiple power sources entering your electrical (ac) system. What you do is install a 30 amp plug somewhere dry and clean which you then maually plug either your shore power or generator into. Only one thing can be pluged in at any given time. The other option is an automatic transfer switch. With this unit you are able to perminantly wire your shore power and your generator in and the ats is able to dertimine which is most suitable or able to supply power. This is a handy system if you have a perminantly installed geni and don't want to exit the vehicle to switch your power over. Great if you're on the road, and want to make a cup of coffee or fire up your air conditioner and you forgot to plug in your geni before leaving home or your campground.

So, we have ac power in the bus, Where does it go?

Using the tripp converter/inverter/charger the ac is hardwired into it. From there it runs into a small (or large) ac breaker pannel. This is the same type that is used in homes. In the ac pannel you decide what your needs are. I have four breakers:2 15's, 1 20, 1 30. The kitchen outlets will get the 20, the ac will get the 30, interior plugs get a 15 and exterior plugs get the other 15. This is a very simplified breakdown.

Using a traditional converter, you would run the power from your ats or plug to a breaker pannel. from that you would choose one of the breakers to run your converter. Create an ac outlet and plug the unit in. Be sure the breaker and the plug will work with what requirments the converter needs. On the other side of your converter there should or may be a row of fused outputs. These are what you create your dc system from. If you only have to wires coming out you would create one positive and one negative fused terminal that yoy are then able to run dc appliances off. However it is at this point that I open it up to the group because I have no first hand knowledge of these units. Please correct or modify as you see fit all.

Back to my system. So we have the ac power taken care of, and shore power. What about DC?

Alternator power comes from the engine, to a solonoid that is wired to the ignition. When on the power is distributed to both my starting battery and my deep cycle house batteries. When not engaged it stops the transfer of power. So no power is being robbed from my starting battery. The power runs from my deep cycle batteries to a "guest" battery disconnect which is good for up to 350 amps. This is a marine style unit that allows me to turn off all dc power entering the house system. Good in case of emergencies or maintinance. Next is a large inline fuse (300 amps). Both of these are on the positive lead and large cable. I use 1 guage welding cable with soldered brass conectors. This helps any voltage drop in the system. After the fuse the sytem tee's off. One lead returns to the tripp inverter/converter/charger. The other goes to 12 v fuse bus which is the main power distrobution center for all 12 v leads. Each of these is fused. Again I used marine equipment. It's a bit pricey but far better in regards to what design and quality.

Solar (the wild card ). Solar systems are made up of pannels, conectors and regulators. Mount the pannel(s) on your roof, run the power cable to the regulator, install and inline fuse and run it directly to your house deep cycle batteries.

I hope this is helpful. It took me a long time to get it right in my head. I travelled to many sites online, asked questions and finally was able to have journeyman rv technicians clear up a few fuzzy area's. I feel the system described here is safe, well thought out, not too expensive and makes sense. However I am sure there will be other who disagree. God bless the internet and it's forums. . Don't install wiring or gas till you know it's right and others who know what they are doing agree. It's too dangerous to cut corners.

-Richard
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:58 PM   #18
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Thanks!

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