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Old 03-01-2011, 08:50 AM   #31
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Re: Subject to police search?

Great another blog gone to the dogs sorry Smitty. I bet they say they are tolerant and open minded as well. Thanks for having the conviction to be true to who you are, and what you believe.
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:15 PM   #32
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Re: Subject to police search?

I am not advocating breaking any laws, but as far as an officer searching your vehicle, he needs either your consent, or probably cause to believe that a crime is being committed. Just for reference, the supreme court has found that when a vehicle is stopped, all of the occupants of the vehicle are also stopped. However, depending on the state, they are not necessarily required to provide ID (except for the driver of course)

With limited exception, i would never consent to any searches or seizures.

Both of these links are for very long video's, but are definitely worth watching.



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Old 03-05-2011, 02:22 PM   #33
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Re: Subject to police search?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbear
WOW!

Luke wrote: "if a policeman saw my fun wagon and pulled me over do you think he would insist on seeing the passenger area?"
> It depends on who and where. Border Patrol within 100 air miles of Canada or Mexico will check the back for sure.
Not true. Border patrol has no more rights than any other police officer unless you are actually at the border except they can set up a check point, but you are not required to roll down your window provide id or even talk to them. They cannot detain you without reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:01 PM   #34
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Re: Subject to police search?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lapeer20m
Not true. Border patrol has no more rights than any other police officer unless you are actually at the border except they can set up a check point, but you are not required to roll down your window provide id or even talk to them. They cannot detain you without reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed.
You may be right about that, but there is a difference between rights and reality. An old man I once worked with always said, "It's not how much {BS} you throw, it's how much you make stick." The reality is that your rights are only what the courts decide they are. All the laws in the world won't help you if the courts won't agree.

Some CBP agents are cross-deputized by individual states to make arrests under state laws, which would also allow them to initiate contact if observing a vehicle speeding or rolling through a stop sign. They do it here all the time. It is a requirement of State law that the driver would have to show ID to a sworn officer of the State at the stop, at a checkpoint, or anywhere else. Refusing to identify yourself simply because of the agent's primary mission is extremely likely to cause you problems.

I have been stopped at a floating CBP checkpoint on the Interstate between Lake Placid and Albany 3 or 4 times. The pool car I use for work is identical to an unmarked SUV, and as such I have been released without showing ID with just a "yes" to the question "Are you a United States Citizen." My co-worker, however, was issued a pickup truck with a closed cap to carry his tools in, and CBP was going to toss the back even after showing IDs, until one of the cooperating locals on the scene recognized and vouched for him.

Consider this reality. This is an incident from a year or so ago, as reported over a period of weeks by a newspaper near the border. The reported facts:
- CBP officials found some packaged marijuana in the woods within 5 miles of the Canadian border
- They heard an ATV in the woods nearby at the time
- Within an hour or so, they saw a local young man operating an ATV on a road within 13 miles of the border
- They attempted to stop the ATV in order to question the operator, and the operator refused to comply
- The agents shot the young man in the back as he was fleeing
- The young man was severely injured, but was not killed

The agents claimed the shooting was in self-defense, and stated that the young man tried to run them down with his ATV. There was no report as to whether the young man steered toward the agents when they were at the side of the road, or whether they stepped out in front of him and he simply refused to stop. It's hard to tell what really happened, as the two agents and the young man were the only ones there.

If the ATV was the only weapon, it can be argued that the threat of violence was ended when the young man was fleeing. For local officers, the use of deadly force is only authorized to end a violent threat to the officer or to the public. Protecting the public would include apprehending a violent felon who is fleeing. If a local officer fired at a subject suspected of a non-violent crime who was unarmed and fleeing, the shooter's career would be over.

According to procedure, the county DA presented a criminal charge to a grand jury against the agents under State law. The grand jury did not indict the agents. They must have decided that by endangering the officers with his ATV the young man committed a violent felony, so that fleeing the scene would allow the discretionary use of deadly force under State law.

In each situation you encounter, whether it's cops, a street gang, a stranger at your front door, or anyone else, you have to weigh whether what you feel is your "right" is worth exercising in the face of deadly or destructive force, or legal ruination. You need a realistic estimate about whether the courts would agree with your interpretation of the events should you confront a criminal with force, or initiate non-compliance with an officer's "illegal" order. If you don't exercise a "right," you have lost it, but you have to decide which rights are worth fighting for, and which should be let go. There is a saying that you get to "choose which hill you [are willing to] die on," and not every slight is worth becoming a martyr for. Sometimes staying completely out of the "neighborhood" [legal or geographic] is the wisest choice.
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:39 PM   #35
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Re: Subject to police search?

There is an old saying among the RVing crowd..... "The side of the road is not the place to argue law... you do that in court".
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:45 PM   #36
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Re: Subject to police search?

Very good post redbear.

I agree that if a bp agent witnesses your breaking the law, they can stop you and do in fact have the same powers as any other law enforcement officer. (at least in Michigan)

However, the Supreme Court of The United States has ruled that border patrol cannot detain an individual at a checkpoint for more than a few seconds without probable cause.

Here is the case us v martinez-fuerte in which the court stated: "We have held that checkpoint searches are constitutional only if justified by consent or probable cause to search" (though the court did hold that the probable cause bar was low for permanent checkpoints with limited impact on motorists). The Court also held, "our holding today is limited to the type of stops described in this opinion. -[A]ny further detention...must be based on consent or probable cause"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... nez-Fuerte

I also agree that there is a time and place to stand up for your rights. I tend to stand up for my rights whenever possible, although it is easier to go with the flow and not cause a ruckus. it is good every now and then to remind our servants that they are not allowed to exceed their lawful authority. who will watch the watchmen ?
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:04 PM   #37
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Re: Subject to police search?

any idea about a personel use bus? thats what it looks like I will have to go with, cant get anyone to insure it as a rv, since it wasnt done by a "pro"
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Old 04-19-2011, 07:13 AM   #38
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Re: Subject to police search?

Try gmac?
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