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Old 03-27-2018, 10:11 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Twigg View Post
This topic seemed to get a bit toxic, for reasons best known to those involved. This is a shame because it's just another discussion thread and there is no real reason that one person's opinion should be so unacceptable to another, and vice-versa.

So ... as for Blue Bird and international and their new gas options. Well at the moment they are just that, options with little indication of actual sales.

Regardless of what they might be offering, none of these engines have been tested in real service over the lifespan of a bus, so who knows how they will perform. In any event, they will not be available to us for 15 to 20 years, unless they are total pigs in which case we will be allowed to buy them in 10.

There are good reasons why almost every medium and heavy-duty truck has a diesel engine, and those reasons haven't yet gone away even if the EPA has made their operation in severe-duty conditions rather more marginal than they used to be.

Slow-revving engines with gobs of torque tend to be rather easier to build than do similar gas engines, which tend to be high-revving with rather less torque. This means that to haul heavy loads at reasonable speeds, diesel is the fuel to use, and it has been for a very long time. The economics of diesel are artificially constrained by government taxation policy, not by engine characteristics.

Even though a couple of manufacturers have muddied the pond with gas offerings, the future seems to be trending electric, with big trials going on all over the place. These trials are expensive, but costs would fall considerably when those buses become production offerings.

For school bus duty they make perfect sense. The average daily mileage of a school bus in the US is 67 miles per day ... and only 175 days per year. That hurts diesels, hurts gas engines less, and hurt electric motors not at all. Give them a range of 120 miles and get the price down under $150k and they will sell by the thousand, given that the running costs are tiny. Buy it, drive it, scrap it when it is 40 years old. Maybe replace a battery or two, and a few bearings along the way.

Just my polite 2c
electric busses are coming.. the NAPT was held in columbus ohio this past fall.. Bluebird and thomas both unveiled electric drive busses.. I convinced the bluebird folk i was enough of a bus geek that they let me ride the bluebird around town with them as long as i didnt video it. it was a very interesting ride.. and while columbus ohio is generally flat.. the bus did go on a few of our hills and the acceleration off the line was every bit as good as a diesel if not a bit better.. considering how heavy the bus is.. the paerticular demo unit of course was laoded with people and every option known to the bus world..

the one question that was danced around by the bluebird folk was cabin heating and how it affects range.. " we understand the cabin heats very well" was the answers given..

how well these busses will hold up is also a question that cant be answered until they are run in service..

ultimately the reality is that a school depreciates a bus to near zero value by the time they pull it out of service.. the auctions we all buy busses for 2 or 3 grand on show this.. busses that cost 90k 15 years ago being sold for 2k.. the school has no incentive to buy a bus that lasts longer than the 15-20 years and 150k-200k miles they put on them. while we all lovde the fact we can buy busses "cheap" that have lots of life left in them.. it means nothing to the school..

if the gasoline engines last long as the above mentioned and cost less to buy,maintain, and operate than a diesel.. then its a win win for the school.. why buy a bus that can last 30 years and 300k miles when you are going to sell it at a 95% loss in value in 15 years and 150k? who cares if its worn out then? now if the new gas motors only last 100k and 10 years. then the backlash will start.. or if they are breaking down excessively in the last few years of service compared to diesel counterparts. then we will see backlash..

-Christopher
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:19 PM   #42
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Agreed, Christopher.

I also think that districts will re-assess their disposal policies because electric vehicles have the potential to last indefinitely with occasional rebuilds.

That is something likely to spread South to North, given the heating requirements. AC isn't an issue as generally school buses only have AC if they are federally-funded (in part), SPED buses.
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Twigg View Post
This topic seemed to get a bit toxic, for reasons best known to those involved. This is a shame because it's just another discussion thread and there is no real reason that one person's opinion should be so unacceptable to another, and vice-versa.
Yeah, well, that's what the ignore option is for.

But what puzzles me is why some folks not even involved always insist on attempting to add to the flames or revive them???

Strange ain't it?

One of the many mysteries of a forum that would not be missed if they were to disappear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigg View Post

So ... as for Blue Bird and international and their new gas options. Well at the moment they are just that, options with little indication of actual sales.

Regardless of what they might be offering, none of these engines have been tested in real service over the lifespan of a bus, so who knows how they will perform. In any event, they will not be available to us for 15 to 20 years, unless they are total pigs in which case we will be allowed to buy them in 10.

There are good reasons why almost every medium and heavy-duty truck has a diesel engine, and those reasons haven't yet gone away even if the EPA has made their operation in severe-duty conditions rather more marginal than they used to be.

Slow-revving engines with gobs of torque tend to be rather easier to build than do similar gas engines, which tend to be high-revving with rather less torque. This means that to haul heavy loads at reasonable speeds, diesel is the fuel to use, and it has been for a very long time. The economics of diesel are artificially constrained by government taxation policy, not by engine characteristics.

Even though a couple of manufacturers have muddied the pond with gas offerings, the future seems to be trending electric, with big trials going on all over the place. These trials are expensive, but costs would fall considerably when those buses become production offerings.

For school bus duty they make perfect sense. The average daily mileage of a school bus in the US is 67 miles per day ... and only 175 days per year. That hurts diesels, hurts gas engines less, and hurt electric motors not at all. Give them a range of 120 miles and get the price down under $150k and they will sell by the thousand, given that the running costs are tiny. Buy it, drive it, scrap it when it is 40 years old. Maybe replace a battery or two, and a few bearings along the way.

Just my polite 2c
Hey Steve.......... read this link from a year ago.--

https://www.blue-bird.com/blue-bird/...-Full-100.aspx

Here's just one interesting quote from it ----

"More than 100 school districts across the nation have purchased the Blue Bird Vision Gasoline since its availability last year. “When it comes to cold-weather startup, these buses perform wonderfully,” stated John Benish, CEO of Cook-Illinois Corporation, one of Blue Bird’s first gasoline bus customers......" and it goes on from there.

So..... IMHO... not sounding like a pig of a bus platform to me.

Of course this new stuff means little to me as I'm not in the market for high dollar new stuff.

Is just interesting reading that dispels certain myths and illustrates the possible future direction of school buses.

One more point...last time, I promise.

We are not talking about school fleet use. Long haul truckers. Commercial applications that are backed up by a garage of trained mechanics with loads of money & resources at their disposal.

We are talking "Skoolies"........
Average folks.... going much shorter distances, sitting in one place for extended periods. These people, or at least most of them worry about cost and ease of maintenance. Best bang for the buck and the shortest learning curve to travel.

The craigslist ads are plumb full of started and abandoned Skoolie projects. A lot of it is because they found out the expense and limited options in dealing with diesel motors for the average joe or jane.

Yeah....... when they run...they are great. When they break......... UH OH!! and the maintenance costs are far greater as well.

Believe me.....I've had a few of em. I know from experience.

KEY PHRASES BEING... average skoolie fan ; not a diesel wrench; not wealthy enough to pay others to fix and maintain; not doing long haul driving 24/7

I do not see where that's hard to agree with or how I'm mistaken in what I've stated???

If yer a diesel fan..GREAT run em....... if yer a gasser fan...GREAT run em... but know what the realities really are.

The diesel VS gas is about as senseless as the CHEVY VS FORD wars.....

Cheers
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:39 PM   #44
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ch777 please ad me to your ignore list.
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:44 PM   #45
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Heating in cold places will require direct fossil fuel combustion, Webasto style.

Great opportunity for Propex since LPG's reputation is greener.
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:52 PM   #46
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PS Steve ...
I do agree! ELECTRIC!..is the future.

Likely some hydrogen as well.

Gonna take a while to finish sorting out the charging station thing as well as better batteries to be practical. As well as cost.

Tesla is forging ahead as are others. I love the electric motor idea. Last forever with very little maintenance. Clean & quiet.

I grew up in Dayton, Ohio and we had electric buses forever. I fondly remember riding them with their big antennas riding the overhead wires..the sound...the sparks at junctions. Sometimes they would jump off the wires and the driver would have to get out...grab the pull rope and hook em back into the wire....and off we would go again.

ONE important thing so many do not figure into this GREEN OPTION....is the carbon footprint of creating the electric to charge these green machines.

Electric has to be generated. And at what cost is that monetary wise as well as environmentally?

BTW...ya ever watch the electric dirt bikes do hill climbs on YouTube???.... VERY COOL! Nasty fast
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:39 PM   #47
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ch777 please ad me to your ignore list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CH777 View Post
Yeah, well, that's what the ignore option is for.

But what puzzles me is why some folks not even involved always insist on attempting to add to the flames or revive them???

Strange ain't it?

One of the many mysteries of a forum that would not be missed if they were to disappear.
And every forum member has that ignore button. Just in case you did not know.

Hope that helps.........

Have a wonderful week!
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:19 AM   #48
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As far as removing diesel and putting in a gas engine. For me no I would not do it unless the engine already had major issues, and was one of the less desirable diesels. I am comfortable with either gas or diesel, and have swapped many engines into other then what they came in. 304 International into my 47 Dodge. Turbo charged my Mercedes 240D, and the list goes on....

I do have to say in all my years of truck ownership as well as working on my Dad's trucks, the diesels are the only ones that a breakdown has left me stranded and had to be towed at a high cost and repaired for high dollars. The gassers I could always "bandaid" enough to get them home.

Seems my fleet is bit by bit going back to gas, the bus is the latest.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:25 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CH777 View Post
PS Steve ...
I do agree! ELECTRIC!..is the future.

Likely some hydrogen as well.

Gonna take a while to finish sorting out the charging station thing as well as better batteries to be practical. As well as cost.

Tesla is forging ahead as are others. I love the electric motor idea. Last forever with very little maintenance. Clean & quiet.

I grew up in Dayton, Ohio and we had electric buses forever. I fondly remember riding them with their big antennas riding the overhead wires..the sound...the sparks at junctions. Sometimes they would jump off the wires and the driver would have to get out...grab the pull rope and hook em back into the wire....and off we would go again.

ONE important thing so many do not figure into this GREEN OPTION....is the carbon footprint of creating the electric to charge these green machines.

Electric has to be generated. And at what cost is that monetary wise as well as environmentally?

BTW...ya ever watch the electric dirt bikes do hill climbs on YouTube???.... VERY COOL! Nasty fast
I rode those electric busses in dayton! lived there from 82 to 89.. they were still running a lot of trolley routes still then. we lived in the burbs but whemn id visit friends downtown id often park at a shopping center and ride the electric bus downtown because it was fun.


abandoned skoolie projects - my own personal belief is that many start oin a skoolie because they think it is the "free life.. thumb the nose at society" lifestyle.. till they realize it costs real money to park the bus unless you own land, its a ton of work to build a skoolie, its a ton of work to maintain even a gas skoolie.. (they still have expensive tires, transmissions, brakes).. if you have a job in the public world you still have to be clean, tidy, and kept.. which means you need methods of shaving, bathing, etc.. either by building plumbing into your skoolie or by purchasing a gym membership etc.. going off-grid can mean sacrifices many dont realize until they get started.. it takes the right personality, resources, and skills to be a completely self suficient off-grid, live cheap skoolie.. not as easy as buy a bus and hit the road like many seem to think..
-Christopher
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:14 AM   #50
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I do agree! ELECTRIC!..is the future.
Ö
ONE important thing so many do not figure into this GREEN OPTION....is the carbon footprint of creating the electric to charge these green machines.

Electric has to be generated. And at what cost is that monetary wise as well as environmentally?
The key to tackling climate change: electrify everything
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/201...ify-everything

EVEN MORE EVIDENCE THAT ELECTRIC CARS COULD SAVE THE PLANET
https://www.wired.com/story/even-mor...ave-the-planet
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:52 AM   #51
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Oklahoma just announced that one day last month, 60% of the electricity used in the state was generated by wind.

Things are progressing.

The UK recently had its first 100% wind/solar day. Germany gets lots of them.

It's true that wind and solar are not 100% "clean" because of the equipment production emissions, but they are very much cleaner than burning fossil fuels.
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:15 AM   #52
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As far as removing diesel and putting in a gas engine. For me no I would not do it unless the engine already had major issues, and was one of the less desirable diesels. I am comfortable with either gas or diesel, and have swapped many engines into other then what they came in. 304 International into my 47 Dodge. Turbo charged my Mercedes 240D, and the list goes on....

I do have to say in all my years of truck ownership as well as working on my Dad's trucks, the diesels are the only ones that a breakdown has left me stranded and had to be towed at a high cost and repaired for high dollars. The gassers I could always "bandaid" enough to get them home.

Seems my fleet is bit by bit going back to gas, the bus is the latest.
Yeah... that's what I meant. Take a diesel with a nice body but crappy engine and swap it over to gas.
I've seen a few do that with chevy military 4x4 trucks.

Gas buses that are in decent shape are hard to come by. At least around here.
Regular buses that is. Not the van body type.
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:31 AM   #53
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Oklahoma just announced that one day last month, 60% of the electricity used in the state was generated by wind.

Things are progressing.

The UK recently had its first 100% wind/solar day. Germany gets lots of them.

It's true that wind and solar are not 100% "clean" because of the equipment production emissions, but they are very much cleaner than burning fossil fuels.
Good to know.

We can't keep trashing this planet if we expect to live on it into the future.

I was reading about these huge floating debris fields of plastic in the oceans. One off the california coast is bigger than texas!!!!!!!!!!

Everything needs to be renewable, recycled & environmentally friendly.

These are not liberal pie in the sky ideas, but hard realities. You can only abuse something so long before you kill it or it kills you.

I'd give up my internal combustion machines in a heartbeat if I had working, affordable alternatives. (besides a horse, LOL).
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:07 PM   #54
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Wow this thread really took off since I last checked . to bring it back to the original subject I ended up passing on the bus and getting a thomas shorty with a mint 7.3 with low miles .
I did pm the bus seller info to another interested party though . hopefully well be hearing more about the bus soon .
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:42 PM   #55
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I'd say you got the last laugh on all of us! Ha! Jack
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Old 04-20-2018, 11:55 PM   #56
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How cool I bought that bus

How funny I love it
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Old 04-21-2018, 08:53 AM   #57
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How funny I love it
Ready to sell yet?

Post pics...looked like a great bus.
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Old 04-21-2018, 09:56 AM   #58
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Na I’ve put in 45 days sleeping only a few hours. It’s fully insulated. I have solar. Oulets all sorts of stuff
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Old 04-21-2018, 10:30 AM   #59
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Oh and yes it’s a bad ass bus. Pretty tough. I’ve put in almost 3k ink to it. Right now it’s snowing and I have big buddy on low and I’m good to go
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Old 04-21-2018, 11:57 PM   #60
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Na Iíve put in 45 days sleeping only a few hours. Itís fully insulated. I have solar. Oulets all sorts of stuff
Sounds great......post some pics
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