Is this a good deal?

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

You aren't replacing them all you? I get the better than OEM but what's the point of 500 water tight vertical ones with 5000 OEM horizontal ones still in the roof?

Anyone besides the OEM know the total rivet count on a 40 ft bus?

No man.

Sometimes I wonder if you're messing with me or something.
That or you don't understand at all what I'm doing.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

No man.

Sometimes I wonder if you're messing with me or something.
That or you don't understand at all what I'm doing.

Not messing with you. I don't think there's any confusion. You're raising the roof like MuddaEarth. That means you're using a can opener somewhere along the sides of the bus (vertical) and raising the roof x inches. Doesn't matter how high. All of the new rivets (except the transition) will be vertical while all the roof rivets (horizontal) will remain OEM. I dunno how many rivets the shorties have but I'm assuming the majority will still be OEM. So, you tell me where I went wrong.

Assuming time, money, and effort aren't an issue (they always are to at least some extent), it would be better still to replace them all. My world is more black and white than most. If the OEM ones were good enough and they aren't leaking now, I would replace them with OEM. If they are causing problems, then I'm replacing every single one of them.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Not messing with you. I don't think there's any confusion. You're raising the roof like MuddaEarth. That means you're using a can opener somewhere along the sides of the bus (vertical) and raising the roof x inches. Doesn't matter how high. All of the new rivets (except the transition) will be vertical while all the roof rivets (horizontal) will remain OEM. I dunno how many rivets the shorties have but I'm assuming the majority will still be OEM. So, you tell me where I went wrong.

Assuming time, money, and effort aren't an issue (they always are to at least some extent), it would be better still to replace them all. My world is more black and white than most. If the OEM ones were good enough and they aren't leaking now, I would replace them with OEM. If they are causing problems, then I'm replacing every single one of them.

I'm replacing rivets I've had to remove, man. Then using rivets to put on the new skin where the windows were. I have two holes in the roof from the hatches to patch over as well. The drip rail in my bus has a rivet every inch. for forty feet, dude. I probably have to remove that to skin the bus, so that alone is a ton of rivets. Don't wanna use open end rivets there.
Add in all the ways I can rivet stuff together for the build, and buying a couple thousand GOOD rivets isn't crazy, it makes perfect sense.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I'm replacing rivets I've had to remove, man. Then using rivets to put on the new skin where the windows were. I have two holes in the roof from the hatches to patch over as well. The drip rail in my bus has a rivet every inch. for forty feet, dude. I probably have to remove that to skin the bus, so that alone is a ton of rivets. Don't wanna use open end rivets there.
Add in all the ways I can rivet stuff together for the build, and buying a couple thousand GOOD rivets isn't crazy, it makes perfect sense.

Except the 40 foot part. I thought you had 2 shorties?

And yeah, I get that. I wasn't questioning why you bought so many rivets. The question was more why not go whole hog and replace them all. On a 40 footer that would be a metric 5hit ton of rivets. And considering how much the closed, blind, stainless are... I can see why not. $10k in rivets going into a $2k bus would be more than overkill.

[DoubleO7]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Except the 40 foot part. I thought you had 2 shorties?

And yeah, I get that. I wasn't questioning why you bought so many rivets. The question was more why not go whole hog and replace them all. On a 40 footer that would be a metric 5hit ton of rivets. And considering how much the closed, blind, stainless are... I can see why not. $10k in rivets going into a $2k bus would be more than overkill.

no need to replace them all. My bet is the OEM rivets are solid rivets (no center hole like a pop rivet) There for not likely to leak no matter the installed orientation.
Not many of us have the tools or additional manpower to install new solid rivets. Plus solid rivets require access to both ends of the rivet.
Whereas a pop rivet is down from the head side only.

[DoubleO7]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

The drip rail in my bus has a rivet every inch. for forty feet, dude. I probably have to remove that to skin the bus, so that alone is a ton of rivets.

You might not have to remove the drip rail.
On my bus I merely shoved and tapped the sheet metal up into the gap under the drip rail and put rivets up high at each window channel.
Then ran a bead of silicone up under the rail.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by DoubleO7

no need to replace them all. My bet is the OEM rivets are solid rivets (no center hole like a pop rivet) There for not likely to leak no matter the installed orientation.
Not many of us have the tools or additional manpower to install new solid rivets. Plus solid rivets require access to both ends of the rivet.
Whereas a pop rivet is down from the head side only.

You are familiar with MuddaEarth, yes? His were from both sides. I've no idea if he used stainless, open, blind, or whatever else that rivets come in. I'm guessing he used good stuff even if not gold plated like ECCB.

So, do I have this right?
Closed = solid = no thru pin... basically watertight
Blind = access to only one side
Self piercing; anyone using those?

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

So, do I have this right?
Closed = solid = no thru pin... basically watertight
Blind = access to only one side

Blind only requires access to one side to install, but can be used where there is access to both sides. You only have to be present on one side in order to install them.

Closed is a type of blind rivet. The side that is pushed into the hole has metal completely encompassing the ball on the end of the mandrel. It keeps there from being a hole that goes all the way through the installed rivet, which would allow passage of moisture.

Solid is essentially a pin with a mushroom head on one end. The pin is inserted into the hole, a gun with a rivet set is placed against the mushroom head while a bucking bar (a piece of steel) is held against the non-mushroom end (called the tail). Often times, this requires a second person. The gun is then operated while the bucking bar is held in place. The result is the entire shank of the rivet expands and fills the hole, then the tail of the rivet slightly enlarges and flattens a bit. This forms a much tighter and (in theory) completely waterproof connection. This is what the majority of rivets used in the exterior construction of buses are.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Except the 40 foot part. I thought you had 2 shorties?

And yeah, I get that. I wasn't questioning why you bought so many rivets. The question was more why not go whole hog and replace them all. On a 40 footer that would be a metric 5hit ton of rivets. And considering how much the closed, blind, stainless are... I can see why not. $10k in rivets going into a $2k bus would be more than overkill.

Who said I was replacing them ALL>?????
And the info for my bus is in my avatar, and my build thread is linked in every post I make.
Its a 40 foot AmTran. 1992.

See the drip rail above. That sucker is gonna be no fun at all!

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I'm replacing them ALL!!!!!
And the info for my bus is in my avatar, and my build thread is linked in every post I make.
Its a 24 foot AmTran. 1992.

That's a bold move, but I like it! And those gold rivets are gonna look awesome!

Are you replacing all of them on your second shorty too??

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Rameses

Closed is a type of blind rivet. The side that is pushed into the hole has metal completely encompassing the ball on the end of the mandrel. It keeps there from being a hole that goes all the way through the installed rivet, which would allow passage of moisture.

Solid is essentially a pin with a mushroom head on one end. The pin is inserted into the hole, a gun with a rivet set is placed against the mushroom head while a bucking bar (a piece of steel) is held against the non-mushroom end (called the tail). Often times, this requires a second person. The gun is then operated while the bucking bar is held in place. The result is the entire shank of the rivet expands and fills the hole, then the tail of the rivet slightly enlarges and flattens a bit. This forms a much tighter and (in theory) completely waterproof connection. This is what the majority of rivets used in the exterior construction of buses are.

These are the two that confuse me. So the solid is NOT water tight prior to compression whereas the closed is right? If you only half compress a solid you're in trouble? A closed with act as a cork if nothing else (assuming it's snug enough going in).

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Rameses

That's a bold move, but I like it! And those gold rivets are gonna look awesome!

Are you replacing all of them on your second shorty too??

Smarta$s!!

He needs to paint it silver and then glue diamonds into the open rivets.

I think it's because it's a Ward. Don't have those around here and his first was a shorty. Caddy has two shorties and these two are in cahoots all the time.

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

These are the two that confuse me. So the solid is NOT water tight prior to compression whereas the closed is right? If you only half compress a solid you're in trouble? A closed with act as a cork if nothing else (assuming it's snug enough going in).

Neither are water tight before compression. It's the act of expanding the rivet to put force against the hole that it's slipped through that makes the connection water tight. With a solid rivet, if it isn't tight enough, you simply put the gun and bucking bar back against it and hit it again.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Rameses

Neither are water tight before compression. It's the act of expanding the rivet to put force against the hole that it's slipped through that makes the connection water tight. With a solid rivet, if it isn't tight enough, you simply put the gun and bucking bar back against it and hit it again.

I get that but the closed has a plug at the end and the solid doesn't...?

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

I get that but the closed has a plug at the end and the solid doesn't...?

There's nowhere for the solid rivet to have any kind of plug. It's... solid.




Those are solid rivets. They just slip through a hole and then you beat the snot out of the small end to deform it to where it can't be pulled back out.

[lucasd]

Originally Posted by Rameses

There's nowhere for the solid rivet to have any kind of plug. It's... solid.




Those are solid rivets. They just slip through a hole and then you beat the snot out of the small end to deform it to where it can't be pulled back out.

So... Closed end blind rivets can be put in from one side, and are plugged so they don't leak.

Sounds like the ease of blind rivets and the, um, not leaking of solid rivets. What would the advantage of a solid rivet be at that point? Just additional strength?

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by lucasd

So... Closed end blind rivets can be put in from one side, and are plugged so they don't leak.

Sounds like the ease of blind rivets and the, um, not leaking of solid rivets. What would the advantage of a solid rivet be at that point? Just additional strength?

Additional strength, and they cost about half as much.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by Rameses

There's nowhere for the solid rivet to have any kind of plug. It's... solid.




Those are solid rivets. They just slip through a hole and then you beat the snot out of the small end to deform it to where it can't be pulled back out.

Ah ok. It doesn't have the center pull "tab". These are tiny versions of the I beam rivets you see in the old movies.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Ah ok. It doesn't have the center pull "tab". These are tiny versions of the I beam rivets you see in the old movies.

Yes-, but you need long arms, as you have to back the mushroom side with a buck, while your gun smushes the pin side into a blob.

-Sorry about technical terms.

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Yes-, but you need long arms, as you have to back the mushroom side with a buck, while your gun smushes the pin side into a blob.

-Sorry about technical terms.

It's actually the other way around as far as the placement of the tools. I know it seems backwards, but the set (the piece that goes in the gun) goes against the mushroom head and the bucking bar goes against the tail (the pin side). The gun hammers the tail against the bucking bar and deforms it. The deformed tail is called a shophead.