|
|
01-15-2018, 09:08 PM
|
#3301
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Montana/Texas
Posts: 681
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Crown by Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: 230 HP DT 466e/MT 643!
Rated Cap: 16
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigg
Mild tuning almost always works and doesn't screw up the engine if done right.
For example, my Cummins 8.3 is tuned to 250 hp. The same engine also shipped from the factory with 300 hp for RVs, and 450 hp for marine use.
Taking mine to 300 hp is probably doable by shifting the fuel plate and advancing the timing. Changing the governor springs would also release more revs, and the engine is safe to at least 3000 rpm, even with the standard valve springs
The main area to be careful of is keeping a very close eye on the turbo exhaust temp. If it goes over 1300F, expensive bits start to melt, but a simple pyrometer takes care of that.
As with all things, the more power you extract from an engine, the faster it wears.
|
I have a DT466E, so lots of computer stuff, can't just turn a screw. I'm always scared to mess with the computer as not to totally jack it up....
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
|
|
|
01-15-2018, 09:19 PM
|
#3302
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 8,462
Year: 1946
Coachwork: Chevrolet/Wayne
Chassis: 1- 1/2 ton
Engine: Cummins 4BT
Rated Cap: 15
|
I totally agree. The Cummins 4BT for example comes in every spec from 55 HP to about 200 with nothing but the timing and smoke screw adjusted. Easy (and cheap) to make more power but do keep an eye on the pyro. Diesels run opposite of gas engines. On gas, the leaner the mix the hotter...with a diesel, the more fuel the hotter. Later VP pumped engines were avail to 245 HP and could be easily pushed to 300 with the same basic engine behind it and similar tweaking. And when dialed in right...you get better mpg's in the deal. All with massive torque. Pretty sweet for a little 238 ci four banger.
And the 6BT's can be pushed much higher in the same way.
|
|
|
01-15-2018, 09:34 PM
|
#3303
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokedown
2003 is about as new as you want to go. Early to mid 90s is kind of the sweet spot. Mechanical engines are simpler than ones with electronics. WIth that said, I have an early electronic engine, a 1995 vintage T444E.
After 2004 things started going wonky with emissions and you find silly things like plastic parts inside your engine and muffler juice (DEF).
|
You have me totally lost. You said "avoid basically everything they have on their list, due to age."
Under CE, the first 30 examples under $5k are between 98 and 04. Under FE there are approx.10 under $5K between 96 and 03. And under RE, well never mind, all 3 are out of budget. You are claiming the same as I have heard , that everything AFTER 2004 should be avoided. So how does that make your comment make sense?
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 05:08 AM
|
#3304
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,762
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by o1marc
|
Looks like fairly crappy pricing and a lot of later model emissions garbage.
The "affordable" end of their pricing is a bunch of low end stuff with gas engines, hydraulic brakes, etc.
Brokedown was right in his suggestion.
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 07:16 AM
|
#3305
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL
Posts: 3,056
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: Cummins 5.9
Rated Cap: 72
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by o1marc
You have me totally lost. You said "avoid basically everything they have on their list, due to age."
Under CE, the first 30 examples under $5k are between 98 and 04. Under FE there are approx.10 under $5K between 96 and 03. And under RE, well never mind, all 3 are out of budget. You are claiming the same as I have heard , that everything AFTER 2004 should be avoided. So how does that make your comment make sense?
|
Drop anything newer than 2003, drop anything with a gas engine, drop anything above your chosen budget, there's not much left with mine ($5k buys you a nice bus from an ad with photos). When I say "because of age" i mean because of lack of age!
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 11:05 AM
|
#3306
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
|
You guys must not be seeing the same list I am then. Granted the pricing is a bit higher than a private sale would be, but negotiable , and lower than most dealer pricing I have seen. There are 30 examples of $5k or less, only 2 of them are gas engines. Yes, most are Hyd. brakes, but that's not bad, just not as good as air. Only 2 of them are Cummins, the rest all larger Mercedes engines or 444's,GM 8.1, 7.4. All are large seating capacity. if these are all wrong, then I have no clue what I'm looking for.
What would make me walk away from a 2004, 54pass, International Bluebird, 444, wheel chair lift,, air brakes, with a 124K for $3500?
I've read things changed much AFTER 2004, so why am I now being told not to look at anything later than 2003 , what made 04 something to walk away from?
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 11:34 AM
|
#3307
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL
Posts: 3,056
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: Cummins 5.9
Rated Cap: 72
|
That 2004 bus will be a 2003 chassis and engine, as t444e was discontinued halfway through 2003. It's common for a bus to be a year newer model than the chassis they were built on.
2004 is the onset of EGR and other major emissions changes in the big diesel world.
Even if you're willing to tolerate Mercedes prices and parts availability stateside, I'd rule them all out for the emissions side.
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/hd.php#y2004
I personally wouldn't rule out hydraulic brakes on a short bus, my short bus has hydraulic brakes and they work just fine. I would for sure go air on a full size bus.
The two buses listed at $3500 are the only ones I would look at.
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 11:39 AM
|
#3308
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokedown
The two buses listed at $3500 are the only ones I would look at.
|
Thanks for the tips.
Unfortunately they are both too short for my needs.
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 12:10 PM
|
#3309
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL
Posts: 3,056
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: Cummins 5.9
Rated Cap: 72
|
Ultimately there are a bunch of good reasons to avoid the emissions motors.
A diesel engine is a very simple device, much more than a gas engine. A mechanical motor pre-1995 can run with a single wire, literally letting the injector pump know you'd like it to go ahead and squirt fuel.
Things got a lot more complex after that, my T444E has a bunch of sensors and wires, does a few weird things (Turbo EBPV? Runnin glow for 4 minutes even after the engine starts?) but generally speaking those were added on and will give you a warning light on a running bus.
The Powerstroke 6.0/VT365 is kind of the poster boy for the evils of EGR diesel motors. Common 6.0L Power Stroke Problems
Navistar lost big time on EGR. https://www.overdriveonline.com/clas...ctive-engines/
But it wasn't an issue unique to Navistar. Stay Ahead of Trouble on EGR Engines - Articles - Aftermarket - Articles - TruckingInfo.com
Most of us in the skoolie community view these motors as grenades with loose pins.
Those issues are largely behind us, but anything newer than the EGR problems will require DEF, and also will be so new that your competition to buy won't be private citizens, it will be school districts who buy late modem units instead of new and can spend 25k on a bus because it's 75% off the cost of a brand new one.
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 01:13 PM
|
#3310
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,001
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International
Engine: TE 444
Rated Cap: 12
|
If you can get a 6.0/VT365 before it has been destroyed, it can be made bulletproof, just costs more money
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 01:22 PM
|
#3311
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,707
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty
|
"diesel power chips" looks like a scam site.. lol..
as far as some of this tuning stuff.. the HEUI engines are easy to "tune" if you are willing to play.. in fact many of the sold expensive "Mods" are simply skewing the ICP to tell the IPR to run at a higher pressure..
HEUI engines are the CAT-3126, Navistar T-444E, Navistar DT-466E..
the IPR regulates the Hydraulic oil pressure going to the injectors.. when the computer fires an injector it reads the oil pressure in the rail and adjusts the pulse width of the injector to get the desired fuel shot.
the ICP sensor is what tells the computer what that oil pressure is.. to "fool" it you can put resistors in the ICP sensor so the computer reads a lower pressure.. it will then command the IPR to run at a higher pressure.. which results in a heavier fuel shot. supposedly the turbo in the 444E ( dont know about others).. is slightly oversized for the engine rating.. so the additional fuel results in higher boost pressure.. More air more fuel == More power..
none of the tuner companies with adjustable tunes seem to want to take on MD stuff.. I want adjustable tunes.. so in the mountains i can maintain power.. when im in flat florida or Ohio i go back to a stock tune and run with great MPG's.. .. in winter time my 444E is better in the mountains than in summer... cold dense air. and the A/C is turned off.. == more power to the tires..
christopher
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 01:24 PM
|
#3312
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL
Posts: 3,056
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: Cummins 5.9
Rated Cap: 72
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubla
If you can get a 6.0/VT365 before it has been destroyed, it can be made bulletproof, just costs more money
|
I agree with this 100%. But balance that with the fact that they stopped making these things 8 years ago, the safe money is that the damage has already been done and the clock is ticking.
If you find a recent reman, it may include those bulletproofing mods.
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 01:39 PM
|
#3313
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,707
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokedown
I agree with this 100%. But balance that with the fact that they stopped making these things 8 years ago, the safe money is that the damage has already been done and the clock is ticking.
If you find a recent reman, it may include those bulletproofing mods.
|
some of the remans have updated oil and EGR coolers, the VT's didnt duffer the head bolt issues that the fords did...
-Christopher
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 07:01 PM
|
#3315
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL
Posts: 3,056
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: Cummins 5.9
Rated Cap: 72
|
Cool old coach! Still not sure if I'm on board with the detroit diesel 2-smokers...
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 08:42 PM
|
#3316
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,762
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallg30
|
If I knew that would reliably make it home, I'd throw a bid at it right now.
|
|
|
01-16-2018, 08:53 PM
|
#3317
|
Traveling
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,573
Year: 2003
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: TC2000
Engine: 5.9L Cummins
Rated Cap: '00
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid
the ICP sensor is what tells the computer what that oil pressure is.. to "fool" it you can put resistors in the ICP sensor so the computer reads a lower pressure.. it will then command the IPR to run at a higher pressure.. which results in a heavier fuel shot. supposedly the turbo in the 444E ( dont know about others).. is slightly oversized for the engine rating.. so the additional fuel results in higher boost pressure.. More air more fuel == More power..
none of the tuner companies with adjustable tunes seem to want to take on MD stuff.. I want adjustable tunes.. so in the mountains i can maintain power.. when im in flat florida or Ohio i go back to a stock tune and run with great MPG's.. .. in winter time my 444E is better in the mountains than in summer... cold dense air. and the A/C is turned off.. == more power to the tires..
christopher
|
Adjustable resistors....there has to be a market for those. Where you could turn a knob and just change the value.
Some of the Cummins guys do it like that.
|
|
|
01-17-2018, 08:52 PM
|
#3318
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,001
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International
Engine: TE 444
Rated Cap: 12
|
|
|
|
01-18-2018, 06:27 AM
|
#3319
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Frisco, Texas
Posts: 829
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: Dt466e
Rated Cap: 71
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty
Adjustable resistors....there has to be a market for those.
|
There is I've used em before in car audio. Ford sound systems with factory subwoofers need a resistor tied into remote turn on wire so subs don't pop when you turn car on, and I've used the adjustable resisters on them because I've had anywhere between 5k and 10k needed on different systems. They just had a tiny knob on em to turn
|
|
|
01-18-2018, 09:35 AM
|
#3320
|
Bus Nut
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Frisco, Texas
Posts: 829
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: Dt466e
Rated Cap: 71
|
Edited link bcuz I'm inquiring on the bus
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Threads |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|