WTB: Flat nosed pusher/DT 466

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Figured it was ECU controlled. '92/'93 was about the start of OBD for passenger cars. Didn't know the fuel injection was that far behind on diesels.

Ya know, I usually have to tell people to speak using little words. I see you wanna be different. You need to speak with bigger words. ;) What the hell is WVO? I have seen that here before. Former Navy, worked most of my career in government contracting and I still don't speak acronym. I refuse to become one of them.

I don't know the average user age on this forum but I'm thinking we are older than the average tuner car kid forum. That said, I kinda like changing the idle with a screwdriver. But I did give away the last of my carb cars and everything else is now '06 or newer. So, you're ok with EFI and ECUs? Is it a $700 dealer only interface or just a fancy OBD interface that everyone has? I do have a buddy (250 miles away) that knows his way around electronic cars without know electronics. Kinda weird since I'm the opposite; I know electronics but not how to tune. Anywho, I guess the real question is, how often do you NEED the $700 toy? It's required for a custom rebuild. Might be required for a OEM rebuild. Is it required for a regular old tune up?

on an International School bus the 'toy' you speak of is a J1708 / J1939 Interface.. (not OBD-II) like a car... when working with a T-444E or a DT-466E you wont need this for "tuning".. only for troubleshooting any issues and it helps greatly... the HEUI system is basically where the fuel injectors use a second High pressure oil pump in which the Oil is used as "hydraulic fluid".. (yes thats right engine oil as hydraulic fluid) to operate the injectors...

there are various sensors, regulators and such which can get pricey if you simply start throwing parts at one of these.. Plus one that still runs but not optimally is going to give you a worse driveability experience..

there are various parameters which are editable and if you have an allison 2000/3000 even the transmission program can be altered with the 'toy'..

I bought one of these to not only make changes to my parameters but also to monitor how a proiperly running T-444E's parameters are...

there are definitely some advantages to having a completely mechanical engine... I have one of each and my DT-360 is super easy and simple... turn screws, adjust timing by marks etc... injector replacement doesnt require tearing apart wiring harnesses and valve covers.. however My T-444E monitored (Dash-tablet while driving )could tell me somerthing is wrong before I even know it...

I guess im comfortable with the computer stuff.. I grew up hacking old OBD-I Chevy ECM's with E4ME carbs and TBI.. (im 4 and went on from there.. I enjoy turning screws but I also love the ability to alter the engine parameters from the driver seat also..

-Christopher

[warewolff]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Figured it was ECU controlled. '92/'93 was about the start of OBD for passenger cars. Didn't know the fuel injection was that far behind on diesels.

Ya know, I usually have to tell people to speak using little words. I see you wanna be different. You need to speak with bigger words. ;) What the hell is WVO? I have seen that here before. Former Navy, worked most of my career in government contracting and I still don't speak acronym. I refuse to become one of them.

I don't know the average user age on this forum but I'm thinking we are older than the average tuner car kid forum. That said, I kinda like changing the idle with a screwdriver. But I did give away the last of my carb cars and everything else is now '06 or newer. So, you're ok with EFI and ECUs? Is it a $700 dealer only interface or just a fancy OBD interface that everyone has? I do have a buddy (250 miles away) that knows his way around electronic cars without know electronics. Kinda weird since I'm the opposite; I know electronics but not how to tune. Anywho, I guess the real question is, how often do you NEED the $700 toy? It's required for a custom rebuild. Might be required for a OEM rebuild. Is it required for a regular old tune up?

Sorry, WVO is Waste Vegetable Oil. These big diesels can handle alternative fuels pretty easily with a cheap DIY conversion kit. The electronic components are fine but I've learned you cannot use that regular ODB scanner you're talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong Cadillac but I believe he'll need a 9 pin J1708 compliant interface capable of not just diagnosing but actually changing settings. The cheapest I found was the NexIQ USB link 2 at around $700 ... or you can pay to take it to the dealer. You'll probably want it to raise your computerized speed limiter when you first get the bus and then here and there for diagnostics but it's certainly not a necessity. My bus is ECU limited at 55mph.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

on an International School bus the 'toy' you speak of is a J1708 / J1939 Interface.. (not OBD-II)
-Christopher

I'm reading this as J1708 = OBD-II function wise but because bus/deisel/commercial it the former in place of the latter. I.E. the bus doesn't have both.

The above is what I was inferring from the start. Scan tool = OBD-ish.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

I'm reading this as J1708 = OBD-II function wise but because bus/deisel/commercial it the former in place of the latter. I.E. the bus doesn't have both.

The above is what I was inferring from the start. Scan tool = OBD-ish.

correct.. only the Cutaway busses are running OBD-II.. since they are basically a standard Van chassis that is sold already cut-up or a coach builder cuts up..

J1708 came out in the 90s when 'E' engines started to make their way into commercial trucks and busses... it was later replaced with a much faster J1939 style interface (early - mid 2000s)..

the J1708 is basically a 9600 Baud RS-485 line and follows the J1587 protocol... theoretically it is possible that I could write my own interface driver and use a standard 485 to talk to the Truck.. I bought the device because I needed it in a timely fashion and it also is compatible with the International Service-Maxx software... that program likes certain drivers.. the protocol itself (J1587) is pretty simple to follow... at some point if I get some time I might see if I can write a generic software and make a simple board to talk to it... the J1708 is similar to a standard 2 wire RS-485..

I just havent had much time to do ECM hacking like I used to... I-Get-Paid business has been very crazy so I work on that rather than the busses as much..

-Christopher

[ourmefa]

I have been reading along in this discussion as we are about to purchase a bus to convert into a family travel vehicle. We are taking our life on the road full time. The house is on the market and we have a couple of offers on the table. Time to put the pedal down I think.

The bus we are looking at is a 2000 International AmTram with a 7.3l 444E engine. Automatic 5/6 speed (the guy selling could not remember on my call with him). Air ride, air brakes. Has about 110K miles on it. It was used up until last year as a full time school bus during the year. He indicated that it was regularly maintenanced with full service lube twice yearly and oil changes every 7000 miles (This seemed high, but I don't know diesels well).

I know I will want to do as much diagnostics/repair myself if possible and I think I will invest in something like you described for a scan tool. I have an OBDII scanner that is pretty nice. Would this scan tool work for the bus we are looking at purchasing - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...oop_bw_c_x_1_w

Thanks for all of the great info. I will be asking more questions I am sure as I move forward.

[lucasd]

Just as a tag-along comment, in case anyone is searching for this info or is interested, it would appear that the J1708 / J1939 diagnostic ports can now be interfaced with a $200 wireless module. It plugs into the vehicle and somehow lets you access all the diagnostic information via a smartphone or other wifi capable device.

Product page & video are here:
https://www.digi.com/videos/wireless-vehicle-bus-adapter

Now, I don't really know what apps exist to support this thing, but it looks like a cool piece of hardware. It gives access to real-time diagnostics, engine telemetry, RPM, speed, etc. If someone is good with app coding, I could see it potentially being combined with a cheap Android tablet to create a nifty in-dash display. At the least, it might be a cheaper alternative to a $700 plug in unit.


This place also has some USB interfaced units. Looks like they go for about $150. Again, no particular recommendation here - just an observation. I have never used any of these things, so I don't know what (if any) additional equipment they need to operate, though there is a note on the site about how to download the needed monitoring software, so it looks like at least something is available from the manufacturer.
http://www.simmasoftware.com/j1939-adapter-j1708.html

[cadillackid]

I talked with Simma a whiole back and they didnt have anything for the individual.. I had talked about licensing their API but it was going to be very expensive..

the VMSpc device exists but on my 444E its missing the HPOP info which is a deal-breaker for me...

im in the middle of actually workiong on the interfacing project as we speak, another device im looking at and have inquiries into is the BlueFire device and app to see what all PID;s it can display..

of course i do have the NEXIQ and the Navistar software but it has very teeny fonts and not a good driver display though its a nice diagnostic test tool set...

Nexiq is supposed to send me the windows API.. they also offer the Android API.. ive not much experience in android app Dev though so I havent gone that route yet.

-Christopher

[Njsurf73]

Originally Posted by MVP 451

Bought mine at:

Don Brown Bus Sales, Inc.
Steven VanHeusen
Toll Free: 1-877-637-2248
Cell: 518-986-8359
Don Brown Bus Sales, Inc - Home

Search under school bus inventory.
Ask them about delivery. They deliver which is nice if you can get insurance pre-conversion, and if anything breaks down during delivery they are still responsible.
Steve went above and beyond the sale for me.

Jeff (NH) mine I bought there is below =0)

https://www.facebook.com/The292

Were you able to bargain any. Also, were you able to inspect it?