diesel engine injectors for svo?

dancarrigan · 02-09-2007, 07:06 PM

hi;
i drive a diesel an old (82)mercedes & i've been looking at diesel buses. the mercedes has taken b99 with no changes or new filters even, and loved it. (mythbusters put svo right in the tank). are buses the same: no engine adaption -other than a fuel line junction (and another tank or two and subsequent plumbing, pumps and heaters)? there's a site that talks about engine injectors. so: are they necessary, or no?
djc

lapeer20m · 02-10-2007, 11:31 PM

no special injectors. I did wvo on a 77 mb diesel and on y 1991 ford skoolie and subsuquently my 1991 international skoolie.

i've often thought that the larger engines probably have bigger holes in the injectors and could therefore get away with running fuel that is less "clean" than smaller motors like the vw's or the mb. Since the vw and mb diesels are so happy on wvo a bus should like it even more....but bigger holes in the injectors is complete conjecture on my part.

dancarrigan · 02-12-2007, 10:11 AM

thanks. obvious it seems, i never thought of that - bigger holes. i also read your thread on the impracticability of full time operation on wvo.
my second (rookie) question is: can't the two different liquids, dino-"d" and wvo can go straight into the motor, why can't they go in the same tank, albeit one being prefiltered, even within certain proportion limits if required - i.e. 80/20? this would really simplify the whole thing and even provision for scarcity of reclaimable fuel/funds. when i started my mb on biofuel, i "broke in" the system by running increasing amounts of biodiesel, starting with 20%, and eventually 99% after a few weeks. why not with wvo too?
djc

Steve · 02-12-2007, 10:28 AM

I think you should be fine with the viscosity if the two actually mix. But if one floats on top of the other due to them not wanting to mix you will still have to heat up the WVO.

Pour some together in a clear jar and see what happens after it sits for a while.

dancarrigan · 02-12-2007, 10:35 AM

maybe this could be a "weather permitting" kind of strategy, the heat part effecting viscosity.
i was going to mix them both in a jar today just to see, literally.
one final question: why not paint a tank black and put it up on the roof where it can get solar gain and then gravity feed? or a clever fabricator could customize one to go on the hood, if it was built wide and flat enough, and catch the rising heat from the engine. why not go with the flow!
djc

the_experience03 · 02-12-2007, 01:52 PM

Running a tank on the roof was one thought I had. My issue was with that was the logistics. Just pumping from the back of my pickup to the filtration setup in the bus itself was slow going with my pump. 10 feet of total head is a lot with that particular fluid. The pump only makes 70 feet of head and it rated using water. I'm sure with the correct pump it would work. It might be slow though. I think you'd want to set it up like a passive water beater with some coils in a greenhouse of sorts. I'm sure someone could make it work really well. I just wasn't going to be the one to try.

Steve · 02-12-2007, 02:02 PM

Has anyone thought of using compressed air or a lawnmower engine connected to a hydraulic pump to move this stuff around. You have plenty of space around your bus to mount a small engine and then you could a couple lines of hose that you can use to move the oil between containers.

paul iossi · 02-12-2007, 04:11 PM

I think that the key issue would the type of pump, a hydraulic, aka positive displacement type of pump would be more desireable than a centrifical or flexable impeller type pump in this application. you would still have to preheat the wvo to a point that it flows so that the pump could pick it up on the suction side.

paul iossi · 02-12-2007, 04:57 PM

think of the injectors as a spray nozzle with a spring loaded valve that opens at a given pressure, the hole/tip is sized to control the atomization/spray pattern. the injection pump controls the amount/volume and timing of the fuel shot at a pressure high enough to pop the injector open and spray fuel into the combustion chamber.
The clearances/tolerances inside injection pumps and injectors are so close that the internal components are serviced, assembled and calibrated in pressurized clean rooms to prevent contamination. Their is not any clearance for junk/particles to go thru the pump or injecters, a good filter system is cheap to maintain compaqred to fuel system repairs.
The newer electronic engines without IP's use engine oil pressure to amplify fuel pressure in the injectors and the computer controls the timing and duration/amount of fuel to be injected into the combustion chamber, again the tip controls the spray pattern and atomization of the fuel. The electronic control allows for higher pressures to be used for better atomization/more complete burning of the fuel, and multiple injection events to maximize performance(like a MSD ignition box for a gas engine), the computer moniters the other related engine parameters temps,speed throttle position etc and adjusts the fuel distribution according to need to maximize fuel use and performance

lapeer20m · 02-18-2007, 07:53 AM

one downside to mixing wvo and diesel is that the law requires a person to pay road tax on any fuel mixed in with your diesel. I forget the exact wording. I think the chance that this actually becomes an issue in the real world to be slim, but running wvo mixed with diesel does require you pay road tax on the wvo.

Running straight wvo does not require road tax, at least not in michigan.

On long road trips in the summer, i have successfully burned about 50% wvo/diesel mix in the same non-heated tank without any issues at all. I burned over 100 gallons of wvo on my way home from nevada this way. One advantage of the mix is that there was almost no noticable difference in hill climbing ability. Straight wvo is definately noticable when it comes to lack of power for climbing hills. It doesn't take much wvo in the tank at all to make things smell like veggie. I pre-heated the wvo in the veggie tank. when i stopped for fuel, i'd add about 20 gallons wvo and 20 gallons of diesel. My 110 volt high volume sump pump made quick work of transfering the fuel. I had to drive 2,300 miles one way. The last couple of fuel stops i filled up exclusively with diesel to help clean out the system.

I did this during early september so the temperatures were 80+ degrees.

I had no problems short or long term, but the test only involved about 100 gallons.

the_experience03 · 02-18-2007, 08:41 PM

Couldn't you just call the WVO a fuel additive for the sake of lubricating the injecter pump? I know in my state fuel additives are not taxed and they don't define just how much is considered an additive. 99% WVO, 1% diesel, anyone? Honestly, I think most people would be more interested in the prospects of WVO versus the tax issue. People running WVO are such a small percentage that it really doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

dancarrigan · 03-26-2007, 06:08 PM

sorry about the delay, but better late...
ok.
i've done some mixing and actually observed the results since i did it in 32 oz glass pickle jars. eat the pickles first, and the clausen ones are good...
i bought 64 oz of generic vegetable oil (soy) at the supermarket for about $3.50 and then some chicken and potatoes. in the kitchen i set almost all the oil in a large camping pot and cooked the food, eating and sharing some and setting the rest aside, covered.
the next day i went to and bought $9 worth of petro diesel and pumped most of it in my car but at the end squirted some into a (empty and clean) jar, filling up about a third of the way.
it was tinted flourescent green like radiator fluid - obviously dyed.
back at the ranch i put an old sock over the petro diesel jar and poured off some of the veggie oil into it, about the same amount. this jar was now about two thirds full. i did this on the porch in the afternoon in about 70 degree weather and left the oil pot in the sun to warm it up.
i recapped the jar after a while and put it in the fridge to see what would happen.
firstly, not much, in or out of the fridge. it got a bit thicker.
eventually the tint went away leaving a single golden coloured fluid not much different in viscosity. i should mention i battered the chicken, and also lost a fried cheese stick in the boiling oil when i was cooking. the oil has food in it, but not lots, and it sinks to the bottom as sludge
because i had lots of oil left, and i'd bought and eaten another jar of pickles, i repeated the same experiment minus the actual cooking, using the same oil but new petro diesel, a few days later.
same thing. then
i topped up the jars with warmed by sun leftover oil. now there are two similar jars. although the remaining oil in the pot is getting grimier as it nears bottom, the gravity-fed-sock filter method (albeit slow) yielded
a clear, seemingly stable mixture, like golden kerosine. no soapy nuggets or filmy weirdness or chunks, twice. i was impressed. over almost a week there has been no change in either jar - both eyeballed 50/50 mixes of petro diesel and waste vegetable oil.
i have posted some of this on youtube(dot)com/dancarrigan, nothing fancy.

lapeer20m · 03-28-2007, 09:34 AM

thanks for posting the results of the expierement....i was curious what the outcome would be

dancarrigan · 04-13-2007, 09:02 PM

hey now;
just thought i'd check in. it's funny how all these posts are about the gear
involved but i've been filtering restaurant oil through j-cloths straight into my engine with great results. right now there's maybe 25% petro in my tank and the rest deep fry oil, put in at about 2.5 gallons at a time. i'll guess and say i'm getting 25 instead of 30 mpg on my 240d benz with a slight loss of hp.
so my "gear" is currently a 1/2 gallon water jug, truncated by pocket knife, as a bailer-type scoop, a funnel, and 5 gal. bucket although the bucket is redundant if i put wvo right in instead of filtering it elsewhere. the jay cloths are help in place by rubber bands i got cutting asparagus somewhere and saved. all wvo fuelings have been random and eyeballed.
the engine has started repeated after low 30 degree weather at night, warming to 60-70 degrees during day (it's nw florida).
i don't need large volumes for this engine.
remember, i checked the viscosity during the experiments before running the mixtures and was satisfied enough to go proceed.
djc

the_experience03 · 04-13-2007, 10:32 PM

The reason for heating is to make the fuel atomize properly above and beyond just the nice flow characteristics. I can understand you've had many trouble-free miles, but have you ever pulled the injector pump or the injectors to look for signs of damage to the mirror finishes in the pump or coking on the injectors? That would be my biggest concern.

sciallo · 03-07-2008, 02:14 AM

My concern too would be with the injection parts. I don't care how much I save if its too soon going to cost me an $800 IP.

Interesting thread though, I am planning on converting a 6.9 non turbo international as soon as I get it running well (it's knocking right now and I'm afraid it will need top end overhaul, but that's a whole different story.

In my conversion (of which I'll post more in a more appropriate thread) I will use separate tanks and switch to veggie when hot, back to diesel well before stopping I want to be as nice as I can to my injection system. One of my concerns was the possibility of contaminating/mixing in small amounts from the return line. I do plan on switching the return as well, but given that changing filters I used a whole gallon of diesel to prefil the Racor water separator, the secondary and the primary filter, I would expect the switch to take quite a while. During this flush time, while I am fishing fluid from the "switched to" tank, I'm returning that gallon worth of "switched from tank fluid" to the same tank.

I was wondering if small amounts of diesel would be bad/problematic in the veggie tank (and I'm glad this tread is telling me that should not be a problem at all) and I would like to avoid returning any WVO to the diesel tank at all (even though it still sounds like it would be acceptable). I'm thinking of using two SEPARATE three way solenoid valves (not the fancy 6 nippled one): one for the feed and one for the return, the return would be wired to a timer so that it switches immediately when going from Diesel to WVO but would switch XXX? minutes after the feed solenoid when switching from WVO to Diesel. The same timer (probably home made electronics) would power as an alarm should I turn the bus off before that time.

Any thought on this concept? Am I way over-thinking this?

Also, what are general thoughts on mixing diesel additives or things like sea-foam with veggie oil every now and then to clean the injection system or even on a regular basis to help with viscosity? I think I'll experiment a lot with pickle jars once I get to that point.

the_experience03 · 03-07-2008, 09:01 PM

Diesel is a solvent and will not hurt your veggie oil at all if a small amount mixes in. Additives such as mineral spirits to thin out the veggie or a combination fuel treatment and cetane booster will not hurt at all either.

The switch will take surprisingly little time. Those fuel pumps return A LOT of fuel and FAST. 5 minutes would probably be sufficient, but 10 minutes wouldn't hurt either. There are various arguments on idling when you stop to let the turbo cool. I always do just because it can't hurt anything. If you let it idle for 5-10 minutes at the destination then that should be ample time for the system to purge.

sciallo · 03-07-2008, 10:29 PM

Well, non turbo here but anyway...

I'm sure it doesn't take long to circulate the gallon that's in the filter, at first I can probably put a transparent section of return line to time how long it takes at idle, that would be my timer set time. What I am concerned with is that one gallon is not such a small amount depending on how full my tanks are. For what I gathered it's not going to be a problem to return a gallon of diesel in the oil tank, it might even help keeping the lines clean ;), but I'm not sure I want to return a gallon of veggie in the diesel tank, I'm into the idea of keeping that side clean diesel. Plus of course I'm into the idea of the timer 'cause I'm a geek

I'm even thinking of using the same timer to keep the engine on and flash a warning light if I attempt to shut the engine off before it's time (of course there would be one more switch in the starship's panel by that flashy light to override that) then I could walk away from the bus, even lock it without the keys in it and it would shut itself off after the preset amount of time

... So, am I overthinking this?

the_experience03 · 03-08-2008, 05:59 PM

I guess I fail to see how you would return veggie to the diesel tank.

1. Start up with return and supply to diesel
2. Switch return and supply to veggie when warm
3. Switch supply to diesel, purge lines, shut down, and switch return to diesel.

Unless you switched the return immediately to diesel when you're purging there is no way you would get veggie in the diesel. Sure, you'd get diesel in the veggie, but a gallon shouldn't matter. Your tank is never going to be that full (or rather shouldn't be from a safety standpoint). Even if you did get some veggie in the diesel...like I said before, diesel is one hell of a solvent and you would never know the veggie was in there unless you really pumped it in there which isn't a possibility since it would just be the remainder in the lines when you purged at shut down.

dlor1 · 03-09-2008, 11:13 AM

Yeah I just blew my ip and turns out the injectors probably had a lot to do with it. They had 230K miles miles on it 15K of veggie. My ip homie said that they were to the point that he doesn't think that they were opening and closing properly and thus took out the piston, which shrapneled into the rotor and springs etc. I have learned the lesson that in a diesel injector condition plays a very important role, more important in my opinion than in a gas motor.

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