Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-27-2017, 10:46 AM   #1
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 6
dt360 1991 bus vs a 2002 cat engine

I'm trying to decide between at dt360 on a 1991 bus vs a 2002 cat engine. I'm assuming that WVO would be difficult to accomplish on this newer engine. But i'm being seduced by the sexy 2002 thomas transit style body.

Will I be stuck with bio diesel on the 2002? Is there any practical way to hook up a newer diesel engine with WVO?
avianlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 11:05 AM   #2
Bus Crazy
 
M1031A1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Russell, Kansas
Posts: 1,129
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Saf-T-Liner ER
Engine: 3208 CAT/MT643 tranny
Rated Cap: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by avianlaw View Post
I'm trying to decide between at dt360 on a 1991 bus vs a 2002 cat engine. I'm assuming that WVO would be difficult to accomplish on this newer engine. But i'm being seduced by the sexy 2002 thomas transit style body.

Will I be stuck with bio diesel on the 2002? Is there any practical way to hook up a newer diesel engine with WVO?
After observing another builder on another site suffer a MASSIVE fuel injector distributor pump failure from WVO with a setup older than the '91 engine (it was a '78 IIRC), I strongly advise AGAINST WVO of any type except that WVO that has been distilled to remove ALL traces of water. Even then, I'm extremely hesitant to use the stuff. Virgin VO (VVO) is more expensive than dinosaur guts, and defeats the purpose, though a safe bet to use.

The newer Cat engine will definitely HATE the WVO without a doubt. The DT will hate it less, but still hate it. The type of engines that can handle WVO are the small diesels such as Isuzus, the smaller MB four cylinder, and such. Their FIDPs have a wider variance and can handle the water in the fuel. The larger the engine the tighter the tolerances on the FIDP (as a rule of thumb).

Hope this helps.

M
__________________
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence. — George Washington
M1031A1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 11:09 AM   #3
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 6
Great! Thanks! How would the Cat 7 tolerate bio-diesel?
avianlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 11:25 AM   #4
Bus Crazy
 
M1031A1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Russell, Kansas
Posts: 1,129
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Saf-T-Liner ER
Engine: 3208 CAT/MT643 tranny
Rated Cap: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by avianlaw View Post
Great! Thanks! How would the Cat 7 tolerate bio-diesel?
Even less.....

M
__________________
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence. — George Washington
M1031A1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 11:26 AM   #5
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 7,950
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
supposedly the ford 7.3 / 444E is a good engine for WVO (from what I am reading).. its a HEUI engine and the last id be thinking would support it .. im guessing the 2002 CAT engine is a 3126 and operates very similarly to a 7.3 as its also a HEUI engine...

apparently the HEUI engines are more forgiving because of lack of a high pressure pump.. all the heavy hitting is done in the injectors themselves when it comes to fuel pressure... of course like any , the peoiple that have done it have intricate plumbing systems and valves to push regular diesel back through the system before they shut it down..
-Christopher
cadillackid is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 11:53 AM   #6
Bus Crazy
 
M1031A1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Russell, Kansas
Posts: 1,129
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Saf-T-Liner ER
Engine: 3208 CAT/MT643 tranny
Rated Cap: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
supposedly the ford 7.3 / 444E is a good engine for WVO (from what I am reading).. its a HEUI engine and the last id be thinking would support it .. im guessing the 2002 CAT engine is a 3126 and operates very similarly to a 7.3 as its also a HEUI engine...

apparently the HEUI engines are more forgiving because of lack of a high pressure pump.. all the heavy hitting is done in the injectors themselves when it comes to fuel pressure... of course like any , the peoiple that have done it have intricate plumbing systems and valves to push regular diesel back through the system before they shut it down..
-Christopher
Christopher,

You are correct on those points. However, it's the tolerances of the FIDPs that make or break the whole system. HEUI systems have a lower tolerance, but it's higher than the smaller four cylinder Isuzus and other small diesel engines. You correctly point out the plumbing to return regular diesel to the injectors has to be done before shut-down. If this is not done, the WVO will gum-up the injectors and prevent starting the engine. Again WVO is loaded with water, has a higher jelling temperature, and other properties that compel using dinosaur guts at shut-down. This system requires a commanding understanding of not just a diesel engine, but the properties of the WVO and how to compensate for the environment the engine will be working in to get the best performance from the engine. To me the effort outweighs the end result. The only way to get the kind of benefit from WVO is to go large scale refinery allowing for a much greater return for effort. Willie Nelson did this in Texas. The results of his experiment is he broke even, and sometimes made a small profit from WVO distillation from his truck stop.

Think of it this way, if WVO was the main fuel and you discover how to run a diesel engine on oil from the ground, what kind of system would you need to distill your own fuel from raw natural oil? There are problems with raw oil that would also need to be overcome. The only real answer is large scale refining to make up for the tremendous effort required to produce a viable fuel for diesel engines.

I applaud the efforts of the WVO community. However, the effort required to produce cost savings using WVO is negated by the maintenance requirements of the machinery and the hours required to be put in to keep the system going. There are reasons why the energy systems we have in place today work as well as they do. But I'm all for making it cheaper.

M
__________________
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence. — George Washington
M1031A1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 03:26 PM   #7
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 7,950
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International S3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
it seems that the people most doing WVO are doing alot of the work themselves.. both to build their system, and produce their own fuel.. and also have sources for the WVO. smaller local restaraunts that dont have national contracts with recyclers, etc.. similar with farmers that have built their own grain dryers that run on Waste engine oil.. (heat exchangers of course)...

isnt moisture an easy task to handle with WVO? simply heat it to 250 degrees and evaporate out any moisture in it, then store it in air-tight, bladder type tanks?

I dont know enough about it to b e knowledgeable, im just surmising. since I know little about it and dont have a lot of time, I simply grab the green handle whenever my gauge is on 'E' ..

however I have talked to people that have done it succesfully (meaning they saved over cost of diesel and didnt blow up their engine..)..
-Christopher
cadillackid is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 04:52 PM   #8
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Pacific North Wet
Posts: 1,463
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by M1031A1 View Post
Christopher,

I applaud the efforts of the WVO community. However, the effort required to produce cost savings using WVO is negated by the maintenance requirements of the machinery and the hours required to be put in to keep the system going. There are reasons why the energy systems we have in place today work as well as they do. But I'm all for making it cheaper.

M
Well said.

I think that tinkering with WVO is a great hobby but having tinkered with WVO as well as making my own biodiesel I have to agree that WVO has some issues that make it less practical as a primary fuel source.

I was mildly surprised to find that even the Vegie Van folks are open about the dangers of WVO in your $$$$ diesel engine.
PNW_Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 04:58 PM   #9
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 539
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: International
Engine: TE 444
Rated Cap: 12
most waste oil setups include a coolant line in the tank to heat the WVO before injection, you run off diesel until the engine is hot then switch over, WVO also does not lubricate the pump as well as diesel
Kubla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 07:49 PM   #10
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: pa
Posts: 520
Year: 1998
Coachwork: 1 corbeil 2 Thomas
Chassis: 1 ford e350 2 mercedes
Engine: 7.3 powerstroke MBE906
I have a couple of questions having driven for years on wvo.

M1031.. where did you find he information that large diesel injection systems have higher tolerances then smaller ones .. I would think the opposite so please give a reference so that I can do some research.
What is fidp, I googled it together with diesel engine.. nothing shows up.

Elsbett is a pioneer on pure VO engines, no diesel required. check them out.

Distribution type pumps were invented to be cheap, and so they fail easily, but they are cheap so carry some spares.

Cost savings is in the eye of the beholder, I like wvo, I think 4 hours spend collecting oil is a better use of my time then sitting in front of a TV.. Even more I like that I do not need the govs or large corps to be to generate power.

Willie Nelson is into biodiesel that is completely different then WVO

Kubla, where is your lubrication data coming from. It is my understanding that it is the opposite. WVO is a better lubricant..

Proceedings of Regional Tribology Conference 2011: RTC2011

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=9675878479
M.A. Maleque, ‎A. A. Adebisi - 2011
The normal lubricant (as sample A) was used for comparison purposes. The test results show that WVO contaminated lubricants with suitable anti-wear additive ...


later J
joeblack5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.