What alternate fuels will burn in a diesel engine?

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

Lorna, I'll make you a deal. Recant everything you said about water, or I'll get Tom onto you. OK?

John

I got a better idea.

Now I understand why folks leave and never post back here.

[Elliot Naess]

“My dear fellow”, said Sherlock Holmes as we sat on either side of the fire in his lodgings at Baker Street, “life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent.”

So begins A Case Of Identity, one of the many fine adventures of the fictional detective Sherlock Holmes and his sidekick Dr. Watson.

And we could hardly invent a better introduction to a more philosophical view of the water-as-fuel mystery.

A few thousand year ago, humans knew certain things. They knew that…
…the Earth was flat. Obviously, or people would fall off! Anyone who suggested otherwise was ridiculed.
…sunshine, rain, and volcanic eruptions were created by fickle gods. There was simply no other explanation.
…water runs downhill.

Today we know differently. And a simple pump makes water run uphill anytime we choose.

Also today, we know that water cannot be burned as a fuel.

A few thousand years in the future, will we know different? Science-fiction literature certainly suggests such possibilities, and real science has already been splitting atoms for decades.
If we know one thing today which we did not know thousands of years ago, it is that such future developments cannot be ruled out.

[mightybus]

Inceni, You can't clump religion with bad science. Sorry. I am a bible thumper and I am winging it through life with a little old thing called faith as written in the good book. Faith in Jesus as evidenced by good folks that have come before me. I am looking forward to the afterlife as written in scripture.

Now back to science as placed before us by the Grand Architect of the Universe. The wonderment that we have examined the principles thereof, is proof of a non random, not by chance setup of reality. There is a lot of things yet to be discovered. Actual scientific laws, principles and axioms our maker entices us to search out, that we who search may marvel in the glory of his creation.

Do you remember when old Einstein said,"I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." And, Subtle is the Lord, but malicious He is not. Remark made during Einstein's first visit to Princeton University.

(April 1921)] as quoted in Einstein (1973) by R.W. Clark, Ch. 14. "God is slick, but he ain’t mean" is a variant translation of this (1946) Unsourced variant: "God is subtle but he is not malicious." And, I have second thoughts. Maybe God is malicious. Said to Vladimir Bargmann, as quoted in Einstein in America (1985) by Jamie Sayen , indicating that God leads people to believe they understand things that they actually are far from understanding; also in The Yale Book of Quotations (2006), ed. Fred R. Shapiro. And, "Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the", "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. Letter to Max Born (4 December 1926); The Born-Einstein Letters (translated by Irene Born) (Walker and Company, New York, 1971) ISBN 0-8027-0326-7.

Einstein himself used variants of this quote at other times. For example, in a 1943 conversation with William Hermanns recorded in Hermanns' book Einstein and the Poet, Einstein said: "As I have said so many times, God doesn't play dice with the world." Spinoza again referenced to an atheist. I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.

Actual. I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind. 24 April 1929 in response to the telegrammed question of New York's Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein: "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid 50 words." Einstein replied in only 25 (German) words. The New York Times 25 April 1929

Expanding on this he later wrote: "I can understand your aversion to the use of the term 'religion' to describe an emotional and psychological attitude which shows itself most clearly in Spinoza... I have not found a better expression than 'religious' for the trust in the rational nature of reality that is, at least to a certain extent, accessible to human reason."
As quoted in Einstein : Science and Religion by Arnold V. Lesikar

I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one ?
From Cosmic religion: with other opinions and aphorisms (1931), Albert Einstein, pub. Covici-Friede. Quoted in The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press; 2nd edition (May 30, 2000); Page 208, ISBN 0691070210

Or, I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being. Letter to Guy H. Raner Jr. (28 September 1949), from article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2 (1997)

I'll quit here with saying even though Einstien was an intellectual thief he was not stupid. He was born and lived a Jew. But did you know he converted to Christianity on his death bed? He was smart enough to hedge his bets at least, if not because he opened his heart.

Lorna, I too remember Daimler's quest to run his engine on water in an article some years back. And I remember the article saying he was successful. The trick, I feel, is using a Rosetta stone, if you will, that acts as a catalyst, of sorts that allows the water to be separated into it's constituent parts without a endothermic reaction for recombination later within the engine as needed.

[Elliot Naess]

"Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet words of knowledge." -Proverbs 14:7

[PDBreske]

As the original poster of this thread, I'd like to ask everyone to please keep on topic. Discussions of whether diesel engines will or will not run on water and whether a god does or does not exist are entirely outside the purview of this subject.

I asked what fuels would burn safely in an unmodified diesel engine in an emergency. If you have an unconventional fuel suggestion, please be prepared to back up your assertion with verifiable facts.

Thank you.

[bus-bro]

Whaaaaat!
No piss'n in the gas tank?

[TheRainbowBoxer]

My friend has a military 6x6 (Deuce) that has a "multifuel" engine specifically made to run various fuels. He can and has run diesel, kerosene, heating oil, used motor oil, used ATF oil, used hydraulic oil, and even gasoline (please do not try that in a regular diesel). The engine does not run any differently (power or response wise) with different fuels or a mixture thereof, but it goes through thinner fuels a lot faster.

Anecdote alert!: My friend used to live in a less than nice neighborhood (1 part ghetto, 1 part redneck) and had to park his deuce outside. He was, at the time, running diesel and used motor oil in about a 50/50 mix. Someone apparently siphoned off about a half a tank of the fuel one night. While he was annoyed that someone stole from him, we enjoyed the vision of the thief trying to run his truck on the mixture.

Back on topic: In an unmodified regular diesel engine, I wouldn't run anything other than diesel, kerosene, or home heating oil, as they are basically the same thing.

[j12784]

What is this about used motor oil?

I am sure we could all have plenty of access to used motor oil. So that means you can run your engine (depending on the engine) on just oil? I guess that makes sense.

[TheRainbowBoxer]

The Multifuel engine I mentioned was installed pretty heavily in the military M35 (deuce and a half) trucks. The engine is at its heart just a regular diesel. The trick is that it uses a compensator to adjust the rate that the fuel is used, based on its viscosity. No idea if anyone has successfully modified this system to run on a different engine.

The engine my friend has is a "Hercules multifuel".

[chev49]

wonder how the multifuel truck would run on avgas...
think i will try that in my thomas, after i run it on methanol for awhile...

[Stretch]

I am the M35 owner... And it will not run on Avgas, at least not very long. There is a warning on the dash not to use avgas.

The engine also had special shaped cylinders. The top has a golf ball sized hole in it, looks like the top 1/4 cut off, to create a bowl. The injectors shoot a stream into the bowl. Most diesels shoot a spray pattern.

I've heard most diesels can run anywhere from 25 to 50% used oil. I run 100% filtered used oil in the M35. It starts harder, and does not like the cold, but the price is right.

[chev49]

The old military trucks are not multi fuel... after all, they first started making them for WW1, and the ww2 ones had lots of chevy engines in them.

[TheRainbowBoxer]

I forgot about the chambers in the pistons... I remember seeing that when you had one of them apart to replace the head gasket.

[jeremyn]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

Coincidentally, on tonight's episode of Doomsday Preppers on the Nat Geo Channel there was a couple with a Deuce and a Half who run it on WMO. It sounds like they don't filter any more than running it through a simple sock, but a centrifuge was suggested as something they should consider.

That was me on the show!

For the record, we haven't actually run our Deuce on any of the WMO yet, we've just been collecting and filtering it for a time when we might need to. So don't go pouring WMO into your Deuce or Bus based on our implied success. So far I've just used diesel and gasoline in our Deuce, mostly diesel.

And for the record, long after Nat Geo left we also bought a Thomas 40' bus. Looking to create an RV + backup bug out vehicle.

[crazycal]

Originally Posted by lornaschinske

Yes John, the old basic diesel engines could run on water once they heated up. Even the old military ones could. The "modern" diesels are so far removed from what originally were built that it is very sad. How accurate the story is I really don't know. But it is a story that I found repeated several places (including on German websites). Many of them having nothing to do with diesel engines. I spent about 4 years researching diesel engines and alternative fuels.

Elliot, you do not know everything.

Hmmm....kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. Millions of people have died and trillions of dollars wasted on war over oil and energy and you have the solution with water. Provide a source for this engine and I'm sure no one will bother you. Unless the oil companies have bought all those engine and they are locked up in some secret warehouse.