got a bus in TX how do I drive it away?

[cadillackid]

and so it begins!.. Cooling system retrofits...

thursday when I drove the bus from Orlando to charlotte.. I left I-drive at noon or so.. while on the freeway it was 94 degrees F.. of course i had the windows closed and the A/C maxxed out..

the fan clutch engaged alot.. and when it was on the bus ran somewhere in the 205-210 degree range.. i did see 215 once.. because the Viscous clutch turned off right before I went into an acceleration after traffic slowed and a run up a hill to a bridge.. the temperature would be on its way down to 205 and then the fan would stop.. I'd *LIKE* to run the bus at 200 or below for most times..

it seems the fan kicks out about the time i think the bus is starting to run at the temperature I want it to.

turns Out Horton has our backs on this.. they make an Electric Fan Clutch.. ione that can be controlled by COOLANT temperature and not Mixed-air temperature from the 1/2 rad 1/2 turbo cooler.

if you have a bus with the Navistar ECM's on the T-444E.. so mid-97 chassi and newer.. you have an electric fan clutch output already built in.. in fact there may even be a wire for it.. i havent got that far yet. at most I'll have to add a couple terminals to the ECM as it appears all ECM's have the output ready.

the ServiceMaxx software can be used to change the fan setpoint on and off based on water temperature..

the Horton Kit for the 97-up T-444E's is a 996123, I ordered one. found one new in the box on Ebay for 1/3 of the horton new cost for it.. looks like it wasnt NOS.. it was manufactured in 2015 so it has the updated hub.. it is a direct fit for the T-444E.

then I noticed in the horton Documentation that a different optional fan blade was listed..

the base cooling on a T-444E comes with a Viscous clutch and a 5 blade metal 23.23" fan blade.

the new horton clutch can use this existing blade.. and will work fine.

the upgraded fan is a 24" 9 blade Plastic fan that is noted as "when additional cooling is required". supposedly it will fit the existing shroud was well.

the upgraded fan blade is a 3547774C1. navistar part number.

found a brand new one on ebay and ordered it.

I dont have time to do a full switch out of my coolant to ELC, where I want to replace the water pump and pull the radiator out as well.. so I will install these 2 new items, then it gets driven back to florida..

this will be a good benchmark to see if my bus runs cooler or not. at the very least i can have a fan that doesnt turn off at the most inopportune times..

the next issue is to get the driver seat cooler.. my Bus's factory A/C is in the back on the ceiling.. and its nice and cool for those in the seats.. all except the driver seat..

I dont roast, or break a sweat.. but im not looking for my hoodie either.. so some type of Dash A/C will be in order.. I dont need a lot.. just a supplement.. according to the folks at transair I should have a good 10-15k BTU of spare capacity on my compressor and at least 25-30k on my condensor so a nice compact unit I can install up by the right front heater and then duct in the existing defrost ductwork (which will go away) will be great.

the defrosters are going to go to the older-style bluebird dual fan defrosters.. I'll mod the right side heater to also be a right windshield defroster.. and then the left side will get the round vents installed on it.. I'll probably user SUperior-Style defroster vents and that leaves the duct across the windshield to be used for dash vents for the A/C.. nice clean factory-style look..
-Christopher

[Dog Rescuer]

My T444E was worrying me a little - I removed the rear heater - and just looped the lines back - so I was worried how it would run - I ran it on I-4 between Brandon and Lakeland - and it seemed to stay about 190 - it may have hit about 200 but not much.
I would like to see if you find something. I am new to diesel engines - but this one seems to run well.

Note to self: Truckers really don't like you parking too close to them.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

im going to Orlando again monday and its going to be mid-upper 80s again.. I think I'll run the trip at 62 this time to see if that makes a difference. before i replaced and adjusted my fan clutch, 62 ran it up to 222 or so where I then turned off the A/C and turned on all my heaters.. and that was in october from texas to florida.. i think it was like 90 or just above part of the trip... the fan clutch got replaced late october.. and i drove it from florida to ohio.. which was not hot so i never ran above 200...

I need to get this bus up to ohio where i have space and tools to tear it apart...

-Christopher

[cadillackid]

the truckers never bothered me at all.. i park my busses next to them all the time..

190-200 isnt bad at all for a 444E, assuming your gauge is right.. my dash gauge is horribly inaccurate to what the computer reads out.. and the computer is pretty darn accurate.. (when I measure the temp manually with my ray-gun) they match..

we can run yours on the computer and see how accurate your dash gauges are..

what was your vehicle speed and engine RPMs?

which transmission did you say you have? AT545?

-Christopher

[Dog Rescuer]

I believe it is the AT545 - I m not sure. The engine rpm at 65mph stayed about 18000 - the gauges are a little off - the gas tank goes from 1/4 to 3/4 as I drive.
I need to get a gauge computer - or a whole new gauge cluster.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the truckers never bothered me at all.. i park my busses next to them all the time..

190-200 isnt bad at all for a 444E, assuming your gauge is right.. my dash gauge is horribly inaccurate to what the computer reads out.. and the computer is pretty darn accurate.. (when I measure the temp manually with my ray-gun) they match..

we can run yours on the computer and see how accurate your dash gauges are..

what was your vehicle speed and engine RPMs?

which transmission did you say you have? AT545?

-Christopher

[cadillackid]

Wow!! Sounds like you have a heck of a gear ratio or an overdrive trans.. 1800 is a beautiful rpm to run at. These engines stay cooler at lower rpm.
Does your shifter have RND421 or RND321 ?
Christopher

[Dog Rescuer]

R-n-d-4-2-1

It also has a button that says ECON MODE - but I have yet to explore what that does.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

wow!! Sounds like you have a heck of a gear ratio or an overdrive trans.. 1800 is a beautiful rpm to run at. These engines stay cooler at lower rpm.
Does your shifter have rnd421 or rnd321 ?
Christopher

[cadillackid]

You have an Allison 2000 series, super nice transmission!
It's an overdrive lockup unit so that's a good reason why you run cooler
Christopher

[Kubla]

Christopher, are you going to get some of dredman's fancy seats he took out?

[cadillackid]

Yeah I'm trying to. I'm stuck in Ohio all week so I'm hoping to get some before the rain kills them or someone else grabs em up
Christopher

[Kubla]

Grab me one please , I do not think I will be down In Florida again this year

[cadillackid]

Kubla - yoiu arent going to the Ocala skoolie meet?

so i did some prelim work on the cooling system upgrades today..

I decided to program my ECM and then test the Fan control output circuits..

programming the ECM was easy... but then I went searching for the circuits I need to make them work..

I found circuit 23A and 23B.. which are the returns to the computer... the ECM looks for a relay coil resistance across the fan control circuit or it sets an error code..

I needed to find a circuit 97EFS or a 97ESS, they are both often together.. one is for electromnic shutters, and the other for the fan.. I found Neither circuit under the hood.. I had my head in the OnCommand books for quite a while...

I called my Navistar dealer and he indicated that even though the horton documentation stated that the ECM controls the fan, he found on school busses only that the circuit was only ever run about 50% of the time.. he is guessing it was an option package of some sort or a code o nthe buold sheet that would cause the circuit for the fan to be brought out from the ECM.. he recommended using the Horton external control..

so I punted, I turned off the output in the computer. and i ordered an electric fan controller from summit.. of course i went fancy as I want to be able to adjust my on and off temperatures individually. while the controller is designed for electric fans, it does nothing more than activate a relay.. so i can use it to activate the relay that engages the Horton clutch. and of course I'll put a manual switch on the dash as well..

there is a port right on the water pump that is plugged and will be perfect to locate the sensor.. so that issue is solved.. rather than mess around with trying to figure out what the factory did and didnt do...

so I'll be using this fan clutch controller..
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dak-pac-2750


-Christopher

[Kubla]

no, not going to Ocala, have to save money for my England trip in may and june, be there 3 weeks, also bought an E-golf in Chicago and brought it back to Cincinnati where they do not sell them

[cadillackid]

all the Upgrade pieces are here!!! looks like the weekend project fopr the redByrd will commence!!! between Business meetings the wrenches will turn.

-Christopher

[dan-fox]

This is the computer controlled electric fan clutch? Have fun!

[cadillackid]

in the factory application it is the computer controlled fan clutch... on my bus the circuit wasnt ruin out... or if it is i couldnt locate it easily.. so Im going to use my own controller for it that is completely programnmable.

the particular clutch I have is the 2015 version as opposed to the older variant. the new version has updated bearings and a beefier coil (according to what ive been told)...

it is electronic magnetic but NOT air... I hear lots of issues with air clutches...

-Christopher

[dan-fox]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

in the factory application it is the computer controlled fan clutch... on my bus the circuit wasnt ruin out... or if it is i couldnt locate it easily.. so Im going to use my own controller for it that is completely programnmable.

the particular clutch I have is the 2015 version as opposed to the older variant. the new version has updated bearings and a beefier coil (according to what ive been told)...

it is electronic magnetic but NOT air... I hear lots of issues with air clutches...

-Christopher

That's right; you posted a link to the controller the other day. Also IIRC you said you found the right spot to put the coolant temp sensor.

Does this setup allow for proportional control (which would be slippage on an electronic/magnetic clutch?) or is it an on/off affair?

[cadillackid]

this one is on / off, similar to most semi trucks..

ford used a vistronic fan clutch in the 6.0 and up I believe.. it is PWM controlled.. I couldnt find anything that would fit a 444E with the correct rotation and bolt pattern for the 24" fan.

kit-masters may sell a vistronic for the 444E, im not sure, and the guy i talked to seemed clueless.. so I went with the standard on / off. as I originally thought id drive it with the bus ECM.
-Christopher

[dan-fox]

Thanks for the details. I for one am following with interest. I'm sure you'll keep us informed. You're good like that.

[EastCoastCB]

I'm definitely following along with great interest. Wondering if my slightly newer model may be prewired.

[cadillackid]

Mine is a late 99 chassis, yours might be wired for the fan and shutters since it is a cold weather bus.

There are 2 connectors with 2 pins each, one has 2 tab wires .. circuits 23a and 23b, and there is supposed to be another connector which is 97ESS and 97EFS, those should be purple wires . The circuit numbers are stamped very small on the wires themselves if the jacket is slid back.

My bus has the 23 connector up on top near center ( that connector is used as a/c in dash air equipped vehicles. Ithe 97 circuits didn't appear to be run out on mine. Another circuit 336 and 337 are feeders to a relay I couldn't find either.
Christipher