'46 Chevy Shorty

[dowoplover]

feel the need to jump in here. I have been lurking here for a couple of years and following along on your build with great interest since the beginning. Great job BTW! I have lived in Texas all my life (just North of Dallas) all my life (66yrs. last week), and been a licensed electrician for the last 40+years. I think you have things well under control with your wiring idea. The PVC should give you no trouble due to heat from the road. The plastic plumbing idea you have is very similar to what we in the trade call "smurf pipe". Found in any big box store. as far as the wire. What ever color you are going to use is fine. helpful to color code for future reference. definitely run a ground, either green or bare. If you are running single wires, go for THHN or THWN. Either of these are rated for 60*C. wire insulation is rated for "internal temp". #12 THHN or THWN is rated for 40A at 600V. not sure what you are going to hook up, but they should do what you need to do. Almost forgot, in this case, I would recommend stranded wire, easier to pull, and better with vibration. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

Dowoplover

[Tango]

Thanks to all for the feedback --- Given that I have zero electrical experience, I went to a couple of folks who do. One your standard housing guy and the other an RV electrician of many years. I simply bought what they recommended (both agreed on the 10/3 wire and type) then I opted for the pool hose as the conduit. Regular PVC conduit would never make all the bends necessary and I could not find the "smurf pipe" in the 2" size I needed.

Still more to sort out but hopefully it won't all melt down. The biggest draw will be 15 amps for a tiny microwave.

I start cutting and pulling wire tomorrow.


ONWARD!

[M1031A1]

Tango,

I'm sort of stealing your PVC idea.... LOL

M

[Tango]

Howdy M --- With all the room you have down under, I hope your routing goes easier than what I've been dealing with. As for the pool hose, it is very tough stuff. Made to lay in the sun and be dragged all over rough surfaces. Way more flex than anything else I could find. I will be pulling the wiring through it today. My plan is to get all four wires inside it while off the bus...then, route the whole package.

And as one of the posters noted...the fine, multi-stranded wire is much more flexible than the stuff with fewer, larger strands. Really big difference. And one of the electricians stated that the finer wire actually has a little less resistance even though it is the same gauge (?).

[cadillackid]

do you use single stranded wires or will you use something like SO cable that offers yet one more layer of protection?
-Christopher

[cadillackid]

I took a gander under my DEV bus which spent most all its life in Ohio.. being run in the "second snow belt" of the state as I call it.. west central ohio gets a ton of snow every year.. underneath the wires are in that plastic black split-tubing.. that bus is a 1991... I decided for kicks to pull off some of that tubing... while the tubing itself wass a bit brittle it didnt crumble in my hands.. and the wires (even in split tube) were in fine shape.. not the least bit brittle..

I like to think your pool tube will last just fine... im a believer that UV kills thiungs faster than road heat , salt, or grime..

-Christopher

[Tango]

Electro-Dolt that I am...I have no idea what this stuff is called now. Forget what it was they said to order...but below is a pic...


The copper strands are finer than "standard" and the insulation on both the individual wires and the outer casing seem quite a bit heavier than I am used to seeing.

[family wagon]

What you have there is from the SO family of cord. Might be SO, SOW, SOOW, SJOOW, etc. One of these codes or another very similar will be printed in the outer jacket of the cord.

Its stranding is much finer than building wire such as THHN, which makes it much more flexible (SO's rubber insulation in place of THHN's PVC helps, too). It's designed to endure portable cord applications where it'll be coiled and straightened, walked on, dragged, etc.

The idea that the resistance of stranded is lower than comparable solid wire is a popular mis-application of a true physical phenomenon called "skin effect." Many folks hear the name of the effect and think that's all there is to know. Few take the time to look up the math to find that the skin depth at 60 Hz in copper is about 8.5 mm (wikipedia) -- it has no meaningful effect for our AC power wiring until a wire reaches 17 mm diameter. For comparison, 4/0 conductor has a diameter around 11.6 mm.

[leadsled01]

You are correct. I work for a local muni electric dept. outside diameter of wire is the key.

Originally Posted by family wagon

The idea that the resistance of stranded is lower than comparable solid wire is a popular mis-application of a true physical phenomenon called "skin effect." Many folks hear the name of the effect and think that's all there is to know. Few take the time to look up the math to find that the skin depth at 60 Hz in copper is about 8.5 mm (wikipedia) -- it has no meaningful effect for our AC power wiring until a wire reaches 17 mm diameter. For comparison, 4/0 conductor has a diameter around 11.6 mm.

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

whats the difference in that hose vs the "convoluted" tubing or whatever the black plastic ribbed wiring harness is... that stuff in both my busses is still in good shape underneath after the age of the busses..

if he pulled SO through there would that give an extra layer of protection?
-Christopher

Well now that we know what type of wire he is using I can respond. Sure that pool hose may work technically to get the job done. The other technicality is "INSURANCE". Should that bus happen to burn for whatever reason the adjusters will see that and end of story. After all that hard work and money invested, it should be done properly.
Of course it provides an extra layer of protection but increase the heating of the SO cables which are better in free air and rarely if ever run in a configuration like that.

John

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by dowoplover

feel the need to jump in here. I have been lurking here for a couple of years and following along on your build with great interest since the beginning. Great job BTW! I have lived in Texas all my life (just North of Dallas) all my life (66yrs. last week), and been a licensed electrician for the last 40+years. I think you have things well under control with your wiring idea. The PVC should give you no trouble due to heat from the road. The plastic plumbing idea you have is very similar to what we in the trade call "smurf pipe". Found in any big box store. as far as the wire. What ever color you are going to use is fine. helpful to color code for future reference. definitely run a ground, either green or bare. If you are running single wires, go for THHN or THWN. Either of these are rated for 60*C. wire insulation is rated for "internal temp". #12 THHN or THWN is rated for 40A at 600V. not sure what you are going to hook up, but they should do what you need to do. Almost forgot, in this case, I would recommend stranded wire, easier to pull, and better with vibration. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

Dowoplover

I can appreciate your input as we have about the same pedigree but I ma retired now for 10 years. Funny how our codes differ between Canada and the US of A. Never have I seen an application where #12 is rated to carry 40Amps as you mentioned. Our code allows only 20 amps at any voltage and any type of cable.
As I mentioned about the method being used, if the bus is lost due to fire, don't expect to be reimbursed for the loss. And that would be a damn shame after all the excellent work he has done to this point. It doesn't take any more work to install it properly.
If one looked at the job they could come up with a fairly straight route and use the proper materials.

John

[cadillackid]

I never knew of 40 amp on #12.. I suppose theres some applications? i was always told never more than 20 amps on a #12 wire..

I dont knopw about everywhere.. I know vehicle fires dont seem to be investigated like building fires..

I had a silverado burn up in a fire... the ins co sent a 3rd party investigator as did GMC.. I notified my ins co but followed the claim through GMC since the truck was 5 months old.. both of them looked under the hood.. took a few pics and said 'yep its crispy'.. no chemical testing, no testing of how thick burn patterns were at certain points etc.. they somehow determined that my fuel rail cracked and burnt the thing up.. GMC gave me a new one...

a fire regardless in a motorhome would be a bad thing ....

to be truthful, is the flexible PVC conduit really rated for use in a vehicle??

I suppose running 120 volt lines underneath is a no-no no matter what? I dont know enough about motorhomes to know where the wires usually go.. inside or outside..

or do you just bundle the SO and run it in the open?

-Christopher

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I never knew of 40 amp on #12.. I suppose theres some applications? i was always told never more than 20 amps on a #12 wire..

I dont knopw about everywhere.. I know vehicle fires dont seem to be investigated like building fires..

I had a silverado burn up in a fire... the ins co sent a 3rd party investigator as did GMC.. I notified my ins co but followed the claim through GMC since the truck was 5 months old.. both of them looked under the hood.. took a few pics and said 'yep its crispy'.. no chemical testing, no testing of how thick burn patterns were at certain points etc.. they somehow determined that my fuel rail cracked and burnt the thing up.. GMC gave me a new one...

a fire regardless in a motorhome would be a bad thing ....

to be truthful, is the flexible PVC conduit really rated for use in a vehicle??

I suppose running 120 volt lines underneath is a no-no no matter what? I dont know enough about motorhomes to know where the wires usually go.. inside or outside..

or do you just bundle the SO and run it in the open?

-Christopher

Well I agree on the #12 at 20 amps anywhere in the world that I know of.

As far as fire hazards, you are lucky you got reimbursed. I did on two occasions, one a Z28 and passersby tried to put it out. I said get away and let it burn now. The other was a dodge diesel pickup and the wiring harness melted in the dash going down the road, both brand new vehicles.

So would be better run in free air as that is what it is designed for and hazardous locations, extremely tough insulation. Run it outside , a few straps and you are done.

The question of pvc in a vehicle is a good one. Inside yes, outside probably ok but it just melts, slowly and blobs into a gooey mess. Outside it is certainly better than pool hose for its fire retardant composition. Nobody wants to get trapped rolling down the road with a fire underneath you. Your chances are much better with pvc than pool hosing.
Like I said, they do not have to pay out on the policy if they see that type of workmanship. It's no wonder skoolie people have trouble getting insurance and staying insured. No standards as to how they are built.
I value my life and the time I have put into my bus.

I hear you Chris on the wrap on your bus harnesses that are aged. Mine are pretty good too but oily and greasy in places. They are more for dressing the harnesses in to the scheme of the engine layout. They are just cheap shields as far as I'm concerned for 12V systems and not even in the same conversation as the AC installations as far as safety.

Best vehicle fire I ever saw was a Dodge dually, brand new, with a huge 5th wheel on back. The tranny line on the truck blew and caught fire from the exhaust I guess. Next thing both vehicles were engulfed in flames and in a matter of minutes both were destroyed. Only the owner's pride got hurt. But chit happens when you least expect it.

I know tango has done excellent work thus far but there must be a better way. I'm only pointing out unsafe possibilities for all and sure think he will have a beautiful bus.The hours and hours of hard work are worth protecting, no?

John

[Phatman]

Remember Tango, SO means - Service cable, Oil resistant. 600 volt rated.
SJO means Junior Service cable, oil resistant. 300 volt rated. The 600 volt will take a lot more punishment. Cadillackid is right. None of it is probably code in a 4 wheel house. Personally I would use flexible PVC. Just my 2 cents worth.

[PNW_Steve]

SO cable in conduit.......
Using pool hose as conduit....
Ampacity questions & confusion....

I keep typing and erasing responses to this discussion. I am going to limit my response to one item:

READ NEC ARTICLE 551

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Well I agree on the #12 at 20 amps anywhere in the world that I know of.

As far as fire hazards, you are lucky you got reimbursed. I did on two occasions, one a Z28 and passersby tried to put it out. I said get away and let it burn now. The other was a dodge diesel pickup and the wiring harness melted in the dash going down the road, both brand new vehicles.

So would be better run in free air as that is what it is designed for and hazardous locations, extremely tough insulation. Run it outside , a few straps and you are done.

The question of pvc in a vehicle is a good one. Inside yes, outside probably ok but it just melts, slowly and blobs into a gooey mess. Outside it is certainly better than pool hose for its fire retardant composition. Nobody wants to get trapped rolling down the road with a fire underneath you. Your chances are much better with pvc than pool hosing.
Like I said, they do not have to pay out on the policy if they see that type of workmanship. It's no wonder skoolie people have trouble getting insurance and staying insured. No standards as to how they are built.
I value my life and the time I have put into my bus.

I hear you Chris on the wrap on your bus harnesses that are aged. Mine are pretty good too but oily and greasy in places. They are more for dressing the harnesses in to the scheme of the engine layout. They are just cheap shields as far as I'm concerned for 12V systems and not even in the same conversation as the AC installations as far as safety.

Best vehicle fire I ever saw was a Dodge dually, brand new, with a huge 5th wheel on back. The tranny line on the truck blew and caught fire from the exhaust I guess. Next thing both vehicles were engulfed in flames and in a matter of minutes both were destroyed. Only the owner's pride got hurt. But chit happens when you least expect it.

I know tango has done excellent work thus far but there must be a better way. I'm only pointing out unsafe possibilities for all and sure think he will have a beautiful bus.The hours and hours of hard work are worth protecting, no?

John

transmission fluid is CRAZY flammable.. ive watched more than one drag car bust a motor mount and subsequently a Transmission line.,. only to go up into a Bright white-orange ball of fire.. (not the dark orange like palstics etc).. for some reason more than one racer ran trans lines up on the frame near the motor mounts (and the headers are nearby)....

recently (when i was bringing redbyrd home).. i ran across a Semi fire in its beginning stages.. i could see the steam / smoke.. the driver was trying to wave people down... he was off to the side on a ramp going into an abandoned weight station.. I stopped and he tried to nail it with 2 extuingishers. and got it knocked down decently.. but no one.. Not even other truckers would stop.. the fire broke the firewall and got in the dash.. I knew it as I saw the A/C vents start to melt.. that was when we both backed away and the whole thing soon went into a Ball of flames! the fire dept of course took forever..
-Christopher

[family wagon]

To that I'll add one more thing: as of more than a year ago National Fire Protection Association offers free online access for their codes. The reader isn't great, but it is accessible without paying a hefty price to buy a copy of their various standards. NFPA 70 is also known as the National Electric Code/NEC. That code can be found on their web site. I believe a free account on their web site is required.

On that page, at least as a logged in user, I have a "FREE ACCESS" button I can click beside the bold text "View This Document." After clicking the button, a drop-down below asks to choose which version of the code I want to see. I'd just use the latest unless I was doing work where a particular version is required. Click the Select button, accept the pop-up license agreement, and there you are. Click the "Table of Contents" button at the bottom center of the viewer window for easier navigation to the section of interest.

The Article 551 PNW_Steve mentions is titled "Recreational Vehicles and Recreational Vehicle Parks."

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by family wagon

To that I'll add one more thing: as of more than a year ago National Fire Protection Association offers free online access for their codes.

Thank you Family Wagon. That is a great resource.

[Tango]

No idea where anyone got the idea of 40 amp loads. All my circuits are either 15 or 20. Well below what this wiring is rated for.(???)

[BlackJohn]

Post 2421 mentions 40 amps on a 12 awg wire. Not sure what that was all about either.

John