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Old 04-10-2016, 08:12 PM   #1511
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...yes they are.
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Old 04-10-2016, 08:26 PM   #1512
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great build.. but it wont likely push enough hot air without A/C to de-ice a windshield...

anyway the fact the bus has no defrosters or heaters is great because you can build from the ground up.. I wouldve saved the heaters because they are about the best you can get as far as capacity... but new ones can be built.. or you can see if you can get some parts from a bus bone yard.. unless you stashed the original units somewhere..

the best way to DEFOG a window is to integrate an Air-conditioner.. it dehudifies the air...

fortunately companies still make all kinds of school bus defroster vents and such..

the Sanden compressor you are speaking of is a Sanden 508 or Seltec 8390.. you can run 2 evaporators off of that and use a skirt mounted condenser.. its good up to about 50,000 BTU.. if you plan to run it at close to that capacity and want good cooling at Idle you can go to a 13cid compressor like a Sanden 708 or a Thermoking TM-21,,
they will give you more capacity at idle... I dont know how much A/C you want from the engine.. but it wouldnt be hard to get you 18-20k BTU up front...

if you go with a single duct and 2 blowers / heaters.. one on each side of the window (like the factory did).. you can put round vents on top that you can spin around for defrosting or for A/C...

Untitled Document

http://www.midwestbusparts.com/index...oducts_id=1124

did you keep the driver console wit hthe heater in the bottom?

-Christopher
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Old 04-10-2016, 10:25 PM   #1513
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All this thing came with was the tiny, original 1946 box heater under the dash (both now gone) with no ducting at all and fixed vents. And having spent most of it's life up in Utah, I can only imagine how ineffective it was at heating, let alone clearing the windshield. I hope to do a little better starting from scratch. And yes, tying in the A/C to the vents is what I'm shooting for. Unfortunately, I just found out the guy who built my last two custom systems has retired. He built nearly all the on-board HVAC for Schlumberger's oilfield seismic trucks and was a genius. Kept the early computer gear at a happy 65 degrees in the middle-east deserts where it was routinely 130 outside. All done with little Sanden units. He even made mini-reefers nearly the size of my bus using the same gear that could freeze meat! Now THAT'S cool.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:50 PM   #1514
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Originally Posted by Tango View Post
All this thing came with was the tiny, original 1946 box heater under the dash (both now gone) with no ducting at all and fixed vents. And having spent most of it's life up in Utah, I can only imagine how ineffective it was at heating, let alone clearing the windshield. I hope to do a little better starting from scratch. And yes, tying in the A/C to the vents is what I'm shooting for. Unfortunately, I just found out the guy who built my last two custom systems has retired. He built nearly all the on-board HVAC for Schlumberger's oilfield seismic trucks and was a genius. Kept the early computer gear at a happy 65 degrees in the middle-east deserts where it was routinely 130 outside. All done with little Sanden units. He even made mini-reefers nearly the size of my bus using the same gear that could freeze meat! Now THAT'S cool.
For some reason I got you mixed up with a guy who ripped all his modern Defrosters out of a newer bus.. Yes I would start from scratch on yours too.. Mobile HVAC has always been my thing like your friend ... I've built a lot of old cars and vans.. My trademark is I a/c everything lol.. For me the fun is in designing , building and even writing the software for a system ...

Too bad we aren't closer I could have some fun A/C your sweet old bus!! With the limited space I think I'd try to combine aircon and defrost into one ducting .. And then add a floor heater only to keep your feat warm.. Is this going to be mainly a driving rig or a camper that is on shore power for the rear a/c?
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:51 AM   #1515
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Howdy Cadillac --- Ya...I wish you were closer too. My rig will log lots of miles then spend a few weeks either boondocking or at camp sites. I have so very little space up front I am looking at a remote exchanger (like some of the trunk mounted systems) and just piping it where needed. I have built in an 8000 BTU window unit that should handle things when parked (this bus is tiny) but I'm now looking at what it would take to also run it over-the-road. I have a 250 amp alternator that may be able to drive it if I can figure out the electrical side of things. But, even if I do, I still want some air & heat up front along with defrost. Should be an interesting build.

Here is the 14 gauge steel box I constructed to hold the window unit...

/p/dqKkfx]
It was built over the rear door around an 8K high efficiency window unit that just blows straight forward.
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:06 PM   #1516
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cool build on the window unit box! a 250 amp alternator will run a window unit as long as you can overcome the startup current...

this unit here

Climax Air | DC Inverter Portable Air Conditioner w/ Dual Hose | Worlds Most Efficient Portable AC

is a low-startup current unit that pulls a lot less power than a window unit.. though they are designed to sit on the floor or be hung on a wall.. then theres just 2 pipes that need to go outside..

I have the "cousins" of this unit in my house.. and even maxxed out I only ever see about 1300 watts and thats pushing 14,000 BTU of cooling..

your biggest issue with the window unit will be Water.. if the slant of a window unit isnt perfect the water will drain all over inside.. (ie if your bus is parked tilted a little or parked slightly downhill, etc..)..

I dont think upfront will be too hard.. there are some pretty compact systems out there.. vintage-air isnt cheap but they know how to stuff A/C and heat into quite tight spots. (dash air solution).. get creative with the vents.. so only need one set of ducts for cooling and defrosting.. and then a couple floor-vents for heating only.. (or maybe cooling depending on how hot the dog-house gets)..

on my old gasoline blue-bird I wished I had put cooling vents down near the floor as that 454 V-8 and floor around my feet got hot.. and all my dash-cooling as up high..

-Christopher
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:30 PM   #1517
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Thanks Caddy --- Very interesting...I've not seen a portable before that A/C guys didn't laugh at. DC Inverter eh? Is the inverter built in and using 110 input? Could it not be wired to bypass the inverter and just run directly on 12 volt? Either way, I can see how it might be a great fit for a lot of RV 'ers if it works as well as you say.

And Roger getting the water outside. The box I built for my A/C includes a large pan with a drain line that will (hopefully) handle the condensate. Heck, here in Houston (Humidity Central) my five ton units must pump out 25+ gallons a day each. Given that water has become a commodity, I have wondered why (or if) someone hasn't built a system to capture all that output. I would imagine some of the big buildings here create thousands of gallons.
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:42 PM   #1518
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Probably a dc inverter design like that would run high voltage DC. The 120 ac mains yields about 170 volts dc when rectified. I'd guess their "dc inverter" power supply takes that level of dc and produces variable-voltage maybe variable-frequency 3-phase ac output to drive the compressor. The air fans might still use boring 120 v ac motors. It'd sure be interesting to take the vehicle 12 v and do direct dc-dc conversion to the 170 volt inverter input; that would be more efficient than 12 dc to 120 ac to 170 dc.
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:10 PM   #1519
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Originally Posted by family wagon View Post
Probably a dc inverter design like that would run high voltage DC. The 120 ac mains yields about 170 volts dc when rectified. I'd guess their "dc inverter" power supply takes that level of dc and produces variable-voltage maybe variable-frequency 3-phase ac output to drive the compressor. The air fans might still use boring 120 v ac motors. It'd sure be interesting to take the vehicle 12 v and do direct dc-dc conversion to the 170 volt inverter input; that would be more efficient than 12 dc to 120 ac to 170 dc.

the "inverter" is not a 12 volt inverter.. as mentioned Above.. the AC mains are rectified to DC and then a driver board produces 3 phase Variable Frequency to drive the compressor.. I have a mini-split torn apart in my basement that i use for writing my HVAC software if you guys want any pics..

im not sure that you are any better off trying to up-convert the 12 volt to a useable source for the internal inverter board.. everything is communicating on these units.. the main computer board talks to the various parts.. so simply building an inverter board wouldnt work unless you crack the protocol.. the expansion valves are even electronic .. ive cracked most all of the protocols for my home units so i can control them how I like.. but its a royal Pain and every brand is different.. I had thought about using them in my bus. I have 3 spare units from when I built my custom HVAC.. trouble is the condenser coils wont fit under a bus correctly.. and the copper tubing is so flimsy on them there's no way I'll ever braze on it to split the coils they run on R-410A which is such high pressure that I cannot find a High pressure rated coil for a Bus..(all mobile units are rated R-134a pressures) so down my basement thise spare units will stay..

the A/C water.. if you buy a good window unit it will have a slinger-wheel which slings the condensate water up onto the condenser coil to help with more efficient cooling.... some of the large commercial rooftop units I worked on have a little pump that takes the condensate and does the same thing.. slings it on the coils.. but the misting nozzles clog up all the time and in general for the amount of cooling gain you get arent worth the effort..

one of the hotels I recently installed a VoIP system in.. routed all that water from the room units down the outside of the building and it waters the flowers around the building.. they said they havent irrigated at all since those little pipes were installed wit htheir new A/C units...

the water is evenly distributed as each column of rooms has a single downward channel..



-Christopher
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Old 04-11-2016, 01:21 PM   #1520
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This whole A/C conversation has been fascinating. I don't need A/C in my bus right now because I just go to the mountains for A/C, but if I build another bus for travel in hot climates I at least now know what is possible. This site never ceases to amaze me in the amount of knowledge and experience that people share. Thanks Tango and everyone else that contributes.
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