Roll Another One

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Don't hang it to low man, I think you can fix it yourself. If you want to tow it to a junkyard then you might as well take a stab at it. If it still together the take the thermostat out so you have less pressure build and use some goop to slow down the leak. May be hang a bucket under it to catch some so you can pour it back in. Just drive off the lot to a spot where you can keep it for a week. Start taking it apart and see what you need or what can be salvaged.
You can do it. There are people here who did overhauls, i am sure you can get plenty of help. Brokedown has it right, it is doable. There are plenty of 466 around. Take the front of and see how bad it is. Have a buddy welder build the aluminum back up on the rear cover and front cover and put it back together.
I know it is a pain but you go to hang there man.

Later J

I've asked around on here and haven't found anyone yet who's touched the timing cover on one of these. There's virtually NO real info on it out there at all. I've been scouring the internet looking for anyone with any info on this and I've only found a few conversations on truck and tractor forums.
Most said they ended up spending a ton of money at dealers in the end.

If anyone has any actual, firsthand info on this by all means PLEASE chime in. I'd LOVE to have some actual info on this thing. Or if anyone has a shop manual for this that would also be a HUGE help.

[EastCoastCB]

I've got $100 an hour and a plane ticket for ANYONE capable of fixing my bus...
anyone want two grand for a twenty hour job??

[cadillackid]

EC - we dont even know if the rear timing cover is bad... the dealer SAYS it needs replaced because most likely they pulled up the TSI that says you install an updated front cover when there is a leak .. so they have to follow the TSI that International says they have to. which says you put on the updated timing cover.. they are a dealer thats how dealers work.. not by their own doing but by becoming an authorized dealer of the navistar product they must follow navistar's rules... from everything ive read the rear part of the timing cover doesnt get damaged from this issue.. it gets damaged by gear issues if a CAM beasring goes out...

the rear is replaced cimply because the updated front part only fits on the newer rear..

when I did RedByrd's transmission I put an ad out on CL - "help I need labor help to help me lift and put in a transmission for a school bus".. i had quite a few responses. with pretty decent pricing.. surprisingly from people that are actual mechanics.. I ended uo not using anyone because the schedule got screwy.. so I did it myself..

the idea here is that you dont need to make it PERFECT. you just need to make it run.. maybe just enough to sell it.. or drive it to see how it acts..

you are resourceful.. and if i can tear the front end off of a bus for a week in an HOA that says "no car repairs" im guessing you can tear yours apart in your area.. esp if you can slide the bonnet back on each night.. you MH title it, you tag it, you hoist the bonnet on before you close up shop each day.. parked it INWARD. so the back is out.. its not likely gonna cause any issues.. even in your crazy town..

if you tear it apart and find that its too bad to fix then a scrapper is likely to send their own tow rig after it... but i have a feeling you get it going is what happens...


on another note - what batteries did you buy from Rural King? my Redbyrd went Tan go-Uniform at minus 7 this AM. I only got 3 shots at 8 seconds each of cranking before the batteries were done...

-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

I just buy the $75 house brand RK batteries. I've not found them on RK's site, but they're in their stores.
I also have liners that may be leaking.
The whitish, misty smoke that comes out of the blowby tube and its telltale sweet smell don't instill any confidence in this turd of an engine.
If I were to spend time and money on this only to need an inframe I'd likely end up having a actual nervous breakdown. Which I may be close to anyhow!

I'm appalled that International would have "block sealant" as their "fix".
Everyone hates on Cat, when in reality I'll bet Navistar is actually costlier. Two thousand dollars just for the inner and outer covers?? that's insane!!!
For every part I've looked up for this engine, I've been comparing the prices of a Cat 3126 and I don't think a Cat would be as expensive to fix as this IC.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

EC - we don't even know if the rear timing cover is bad... the dealer SAYS it needs replaced because most likely they pulled up the TSI that says you install an updated front cover when there is a leak .. so they have to follow the TSI that International says they have to. which says you put on the updated timing cover.. they are a dealer that's how dealers work.. not by their own doing but by becoming an authorized dealer of the Navistar product they must follow Navistar's rules... from everything I've read the rear part of the timing cover doesn't get damaged from this issue.. it gets damaged by gear issues if a CAM bearing goes out...

the rear is replaced simply because the updated front part only fits on the newer rear..

when I did RedByrd's transmission I put an ad out on CL - "help I need labor help to help me lift and put in a transmission for a school bus".. i had quite a few responses. with pretty decent pricing.. surprisingly from people that are actual mechanics.. I ended up not using anyone because the schedule got screwy.. so I did it myself..

the idea here is that you don't need to make it PERFECT. you just need to make it run.. maybe just enough to sell it.. or drive it to see how it acts..

you are resourceful.. and if i can tear the front end off of a bus for a week in an HOA that says "no car repairs" im guessing you can tear yours apart in your area.. esp if you can slide the bonnet back on each night.. you MH title it, you tag it, you hoist the bonnet on before you close up shop each day.. parked it INWARD. so the back is out.. its not likely gonna cause any issues.. even in your crazy town..

if you tear it apart and find that its too bad to fix then a scrapper is likely to send their own tow rig after it... but i have a feeling you get it going is what happens...


on another note - what batteries did you buy from Rural King? my Redbyrd went Tan go-Uniform at minus 7 this AM. I only got 3 shots at 8 seconds each of cranking before the batteries were done...

-Christopher

Charlie,
Mostly what Chris said. The shop is giving you the worst case. Think about it. Who wants a $2000 quote and then goes to pick up their vehicle to find out **** broke, it was worse than expected and now you owe $8000? Navistar and dealers aside, they can't legally do that. If you request a written estimate, the bill can be no more than $50 the quote. You aren't going to complain if I give you a quote for $2000 and then tell you it was only $500 after all.

Don't take this as criticism but something I've noticed is when you get bad news, you go straight to depressed and dumping it all. Yes, it's damn depressing and I HATE dumping good money after bad into something. But in my case, I'm also lazy. I'll let it sit for months before doing something.

Anywho, the point is, it doesn't cost more to have the bus towed for scrap in buckets than it does all assembled. Get the bus somewhere it can sit awhile even if you have to rent a U-Store-It spot. If you are truly going to scrap it, drive it to the junk yard. Save the tow bill. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE RASH MOVE.

You are a resourceful guy. Are any of your lawn clients businesses? Big properties? I'd let you park your bus in a corner spot for a month or two's free service. Barter, then you're not out cash reserves.

Once the bus is happily parked, get that front cover off and give it a look-see. Someone made that piece probably from a solid block of AL. If it was done once, it can be done again. Sure it would be easier with drawings and 10,000 pieces but what would a one off cost? That's worst case in repairing. I'm willing to bet that someone that can spell TIG and knows the hot end from the cold can rebuild what you have. Any machine shop that grinds and polishes heads can do it.

Short story long, get your head right before making any major decisions on this. Don't let a $300 tow bill make you throw away a $4,000 bus.

[cadillackid]

the issue is that the dealer is expensive for anything and everything navistar or Cat or cummins..

if you have a cummins 5.9 or a T-444E then you get a break because there is a ton of aftermarket parts support so you can buy parts anywhere.. cummins still makes the 5.9 and you can still order a 7.3 from ford as a replacement.

buying brand new dealer parts is always going to be very costly.. thats why there is such a huge amount of used parts pulled off of all MD and HD engines.. and the likes of truckpartsinventory, vanderhaags etc make their living on it.. chances you are right the sealant wont fix the geyser at the timing cover, but might at the liners.. and yeah a dealer inframe of that engine is very expensive.. its a dealer.. you yourself tell us all that every-day that dealers suck and are only out for a buck..

as for the sealant. cadillac required it in their Lined engines. (the HT-4100,4500,4900) were all wet-liner aluminum engines.. GM required it from brand new..

I dont know much about the DT-466E other than what ive read about it.. and what ive learned from my DT-360, but one thing I do know is that if I was backed into a corner I myself would probably start tearing stuff apart.. when I was 20 and had that old Peugeot diesel. that i loved so much, it was either jiunk it or try and fix it.. I didnt know the first thing about building an engine.. it was 1989 i didnt have google.. so I went to the library and started reading. and started taking stuff apart.. i broke a head bolt off in the block and said 'F' it.. one of the FEW positive things my father did for me was say "you can do it.. you drill a hole in the bolt and you heat it and you oil it and then you tap the hole".. I had no idea what he said but I took the head to a shop to have the valves worked.. because i knew if the head was being re-conditioned that id be encourasged to fix the car.. i asked the counter guy.. "hey how hard is it to drill out a head bolt in the block? do I need that bolt? can I run without it?".. he laughed , handed me a small black box of tools and saids "here ya go, this will help you. oh and dont re-use any of the old bolts.. i'll order ya new ones".. I drilled out the bolt, re-tapped the hole and moved on..

you go from "I hate this ******* thing".. to "well what can it hurt.. if I dont take it apart I have ZERO chance" to "wow I made it past the bad bolt. I can do this"....

did the dealer guy tell you how he knows the cover is bad? what if the damn rubber gasket just wore out on the timing cover and the cover is fine? does he see a corroded-ouit notch in it to say "yes its bad".. or is it just spraying water everywhere and the book says "if this then that"...

make the dealer tell you how they know this stuff is busted.. not just "the book says it is so it must be"...
-Christopher

[joeblack5]

Chris, you HAD a peugeot diesel. Man that is cool stuff. Good on you that you kept it running. I have an old Citroen DS (gas)and a several jeep 2.1 diesels. Those cars are adventures by themselves.

Charlie , this is all very good advise. We all drive old stuff , anything can break by the time we are getting it. The rest of that bus is what you wanted and got. I am sure you are somewhere in a bind that you even asked a dealer to look at it but you already knew that the dealer and the stealer are pretty close. These parts are all over e-bay and not that expensive and as said before a TIG welder can take care of this stuff in no time.

Good luck man.
Later J

[Rusty]

This boy has some skills. Ending is best part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPtNTGW4Xmw

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Chris, you HAD a peugeot diesel. Man that is cool stuff. Good on you that you kept it running. I have an old Citroen DS (gas)and a several jeep 2.1 diesels. Those cars are adventures by themselves.

Charlie , this is all very good advise. We all drive old stuff , anything can break by the time we are getting it. The rest of that bus is what you wanted and got. I am sure you are somewhere in a bind that you even asked a dealer to look at it but you already knew that the dealer and the stealer are pretty close. These parts are all over e-bay and not that expensive and as said before a TIG welder can take care of this stuff in no time.

Good luck man.
Later J

yeah I had a 1980 Peugeot 505 SD, it was a 4 cylinder non-turbo diesel with the Bosch fuel injection system.. similar to V-dub rabbits., it was spring and i started losing coolant slowly but couldnt tell where it went.. so i just kept driving it adding coolant when it got low.. then it started smoking and i started getting wierd noises and it was misfiring on a cylinder.. my dad said i probably blew the head gasket.. when I took it apart it ended up that the coolant leak into the cylinder had steamed a piston and broke a compression ring.. so I 'Inframed' it.. sort of... took all the pistons out Honed the cylinders put new rings and bearings on all the rods and mains and had the head worked.. replaced the one bad piston. obviously it wasnt the right thing to do (I shouldve had the block worked).. I put it back together and it miraculously ran pretty darn good and didnt use oil... that car ran for a long time after that..
-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

I got an email back from them. These guys are a total scam. the parts prices are higher than retail. I've got a part on a ticket with my name that I had them set aside for me before i took the bus down there.
They told me the front cover was 900 something plus tax, now they're wanting like 1200 for it. So I've asked them about that and waiting.
I'm not expecting to actually accomplish anything by this, I'm just trying to buy time "negotiating" so that I can arrange to get the bus out of there.

I can actually buy a reman engine for what they want to replace this cover.
Problem there is, how the hell do I pull this one out? I don't have access to a forklift or a crane.

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I've got $100 an hour and a plane ticket for ANYONE capable of fixing my bus...
anyone want two grand for a twenty hour job??

Did you find a place to work on it? Tools can be pretty expensive to fly in.
Have you got a engine hoist for the rad or bring their own too?
A chain over a tree branch will lift that out of the way..so many options.

You have given others so much good advice but won't accept any. Better to part it out and recover some of your loss. That bus, according to the list you posted, never had any preventative maintenance and thus has all sorts of issues, make that expensive issues other than the leak. That is what happens without pm's regularly.

You bought it in haste without due diligence man so not many options.
I have no doubt you would have walked away if you had looked at it closely. You sold two good buses and were ahead money, now hate to see you spinning. You bought to have a 215hp grocery-getter for the cool factor no doubt, which that was not built for. An ego thing I suppose.

A quick search on that engine led me to all kinds of info you might need. What parts aren't you clear about?

Success comes in "CANS", not "CAN'TS", so give it a ago as so many others have suggested too. A nervous breakdown sure won't help anyone will it?
Put some hard work and sweat into rather than a lot of money.
Hate to be so blunt but someone has to, you refuse help.

[oricha1984]

Not much else to say that hasn't been said before.
Thank you for sharing this information with the rest of us.
Bus or no bus, keep around 😀

Sent from my Life One X using Tapatalk

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Did you find a place to work on it? Tools can be pretty expensive to fly in.
Have you got a engine hoist for the rad or bring their own too?
A chain over a tree branch will lift that out of the way..so many options.

You have given others so much good advice but won't accept any. Better to part it out and recover some of your loss. That bus, according to the list you posted, never had any preventative maintenance and thus has all sorts of issues, make that expensive issues other than the leak. That is what happens without pm's regularly.

You bought it in haste without due diligence man so not many options.
I have no doubt you would have walked away if you had looked at it closely. You sold two good buses and were ahead money, now hate to see you spinning. You bought to have a 215hp grocery-getter for the cool factor no doubt, which that was not built for. An ego thing I suppose.

A quick search on that engine led me to all kinds of info you might need. What parts aren't you clear about?

Success comes in "CANS", not "CAN'TS", so give it a ago as so many others have suggested too. A nervous breakdown sure won't help anyone will it?
Put some hard work and sweat into rather than a lot of money.
Hate to be so blunt but someone has to, you refuse help.

I've yet to see anyone chime in with actual advice about the specific problem. Just the continual suggestions of JB weld.
Again- If anyone has a manual they can share, or has any firsthand knowledge about this specific repair of a 2000-2004 DT466E I'd love to hear from you.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Again- If anyone has a manual they can share, or has any firsthand knowledge about this specific repair of a 2000-2004 DT466E I'd love to hear from you.

If it was a Cummins I could "help" you. Quoted because help is relative. I have the FSM for the Cummins in print (from the school yard) and in PDF (from Cummins). It is not what I'm used to in a FSM from the car manufacturers. There's a fair bit in there that says "remove cam shaft". well, yeah the cam shaft is in the way. I can see that. How do I go about removing the cam shaft?!? The auto FSMs hold your hand more.

Finding whatever Navistar has for an FSM has to be doable.

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I got an email back from them. These guys are a total scam. the parts prices are higher than retail. I've got a part on a ticket with my name that I had them set aside for me before i took the bus down there.
They told me the front cover was 900 something plus tax, now they're wanting like 1200 for it. So I've asked them about that and waiting.
I'm not expecting to actually accomplish anything by this, I'm just trying to buy time "negotiating" so that I can arrange to get the bus out of there.

I can actually buy a reman engine for what they want to replace this cover.
Problem there is, how the hell do I pull this one out? I don't have access to a forklift or a crane.

I like the word "how" in your post.

You are thinking about how you could do it.

So, the engine weighs less than mine, and mine is, I believe, around 1400 lb.

A 1.5 ton or 2 ton shop crane can be rented quite cheaply, and you can build a decent engine stand from old pallets. You can support the transmission from below and leave it in the bus.

[BlackJohn]

Why is your internet search not fruitful? Mine told all you need to know.
New bolts on the new front cover. Torque to 18ft/lbs. Reassemble. Check work and then dump it.
New antifreeze also, not the blue windshield washer they put in.
John

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Why is your internet search not fruitful? Mine told all you need to know.
New bolts on the new front cover. Torque to 18ft/lbs. Reassemble. Check work and then dump it.
New antifreeze also, not the blue windshield washer they put in.
John

Can you give the links?

I got the part numbers for the covers and they're coming back as being for an EGR engine.
So basically the dealer are inept and still don't even know what engine is in the bus. Idiots.

[M1031A1]

CB,

I've been sitting on the sidelines, cringing as I've been reading. As a former Master Diesel Mechanic (pre 2000 mind you) I wish I could help more effectively.

However, this engine was avoided due to the aforementioned issues in your thread.

Seriously look at a chain lift to help pull the engine. They are a cheap and very effective way to pull engines from vehicles. When I was in my government surplus business I used them often to replace engines, transmissions, and transfer cases. I even used one to pull my M1031 onto a U-Haul car carrier in November to get us up to Kansas.

If you can get an engine swap going I can help. I have no experience with your current engine, other than the basics about diesels in general.

Right now I'm brainstorming with the hope of maybe generating alternative ideas/solutions that could work.

I feel your pain. I've been there, suffered that, and, yes, it sux....

Those are my thoughts at this time. I'm always open to ideas that help, and, or are better.

Godspeed for a good solution ECCB!

M

[M1031A1]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Can you give the links?

I got the part numbers for the covers and they're coming back as being for an EGR engine.
So basically the dealer are inept and still don't even know what engine is in the bus. Idiots.

Ok, here's an idea. I know it works with other engines, Cat in particular: Can the EGR part of the cover be deleted/blocked so it can be used for this engine?

It's just a thought. I have NO idea about these engines. However, I thought I'd put that idea out for discussion.

M

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by M1031A1

Ok, here's an idea. I know it works with other engines, Cat in particular: Can the EGR part of the cover be deleted/blocked so it can be used for this engine?

It's just a thought. I have NO idea about these engines. However, I thought I'd put that idea out for discussion.

M

The egr engine covers cost several hundred more, so I'd rather just get what is designed to fit directly. IF I try this I only get one shot and its gotta happen fast.