The RedByrd TRANSformation.

[cadillackid]

96 makes things a bit tougher as you have the '3 box' computers whuch dont have the J1939 data connector..



to make your trans work you'll need an external throttle box of some type. either one that can physically connect wit ha cable to your pedal and translate the info.. or one that that electronically pigybacks off of the 2 resistance wires (I have one of this type laying in my garage.. its what I used initially)...


on the newer single-computer 466E (has a big box hanging off the side of the engine) there is a datalink already on the engine designed for this purpose..



using a 2009 TCM may introduce issues..



1. if its from a school bus it will likely only be 5 speed and still need 6th unlocked
2. the newer MaxxForce engines (2007 and newer) supported a feature called "SEM" or Shift-Energy-Management in which the transmission told the engine to de-rate during shifts.. this feature is only present on newer engines.. and often the TCM is designed to go into Limp mode if its turned on and the proper Communication isnt seen.. your 2009 TCM very likely has it enabled..



I bought a 4th gen 6 speed TCM from jason at transmissiontuner dot com. he also has different throttle boxes (and wiring harnesses if you didnt harvest the one from the 09 bus)


cruise control will be an issue if you use it in the hills.. as the pedal itself doesnt move so any throttle box relying on the accelerator pedal means on cruise control the transmission likely wont downshift itself on hills..


the 2009 transmission itself should bolt right up and run on a standard 4th gen TCM.. it is likely an Allison 2500 PTS
-Christopher

[SuperAudioGuy]

Thank you so much for that info, Christopher.

May I pick your brain a bit more?

96 makes things a bit tougher as you have the '3 box' computers whuch dont have the J1939 data connector..

This is a pic of the box on my firewall. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge on the chronology of these things, but it appears to be 1 box - or is this exactly what you were expecting to see?

the newer MaxxForce engines (2007 and newer) supported a feature called "SEM"

Would I be better off finding a 2006, or earlier doner?

I have 3.54 rear gears, and 39" tires, so I'm thinking that the 5 speed would suffice.

The "cruise control" that I have right now is really just a high idle for warm up. I'm assuming that 'real' cruise control doesn't exist without an electronic transmission, is that correct?

I have reached out to transmissiontuner, and am waiting for his reply.

If I decide the 2500 level of customization is just too much for me; what is your opinion of the 643 swap? What's your experience with it?
Does it run cooler than the 545?
Would it be safer in the mountains (engine brake)?
Would I only be able to engine brake in gears 3 and 4, or do they all lock up?

Thanks again for any help. Happy to throw some bones your way for your help.
-Jason

[cadillackid]

wowsers 3.54 and 39" tires!! my red bus is 33" and 3.54 and that bus is way overgeared.. she tachs about 1750-1850 at 65 or so in 5th.. and like 1550 in 6th.. way too low for that engine.. with 39" tires you are gonna lug the crap out of that...

I want to go 4.10 with my 33"...



an MT643.. you want them locked up for engine braking.. a 643 locks in 3rd and 4th under accelerator pedal and will lock in 2nd for a short time on its own or if you drop it into '2' it stays locked and has decent engine braking.. much better than a 545.. a 643 is cooler because of the lockup.. there is no overdrive but you dont need it with 39" and 3.54.. if it were MY bus id go with a 2500 and then regear that thing to 4.44's with those 39" tires.. gives you could pulling torque and also moderate RPMs so you dont lug it in higher gears..



the single box computer is a large box hanging off the side of the engine.. with 2 large cables going to it.. an ECM on the firewall is one of the 3 boxes of a 3 box system.

[Mountain Gnome]

Originally Posted by SuperAudioGuy

The "cruise control" that I have right now is really just a high idle for warm up. I'm assuming that 'real' cruise control doesn't exist without an electronic transmission, is that correct?

I have an AT545 (non-electronic) transmission with "real" cruise control (set at any road speed). The RPMs may vary. The tranny will shift if needed. Plus I have high idle.

[cadillackid]

my cruise worked with my AT545.. in fsact before I got true J1939 integration working on my 1000 series, the cruise had worked alot better on my 545 than it did on my 1000.. the problem with the 3 box system is you have to get a throttle sensor that only detects when the foot pedal is moved.. the foot pedal doesnt move when in cruise mode of a DT466E or T444E so it wont downshift. the AT545 has an electric modulator which the ECM tells the trans to downshift.. that modulator wont work on an allison 1000 / 2000. the old WTEC-II MD3060s that came out and worked with the 3 box systems ran ion a J1708 data linl so they worked in cruise mode correctly.. (WTEC-II is extremely obsolete nowadays and not something you could easily retrofit to your bus and wont run a 1000 / 2000.. only a 3000 series world transmission)..
..
if I were in the same situation knowing myself id probably build a Data link translater.. or use one oif these..


https://c-a-i.net/translators/j08


it would talk to a J1939 TCM and provide the PGNs the allison wants.. at least some of them anyway.

[Simplicity]

My cruise control works like a regular cruise, and the high idol works using the same switches with my MT643.

[cadillackid]

The cruise is selectable in the ECM. Schools often turn it off so the drivers don’t use it on field trips .

Your 643 gets its throttle input from the modulator, J1939 isn’t required to run that since it’s all mechanical. And it will downshift off needed on cruise because the ECM will send a downshift signal to the modulator

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

The cruise is selectable in the ECM. Schools often turn it off so the drivers don’t use it on field trips .

Your 643 gets its throttle input from the modulator, J1939 isn’t required to run that since it’s all mechanical. And it will downshift off needed on cruise because the ECM will send a downshift signal to the modulator

Hmmm, since I have bypassed the ECM and use boost pressure to activate the modulator, I'm wondering how the cruise is doing its thing?

Granted, I haven't used it much, but the bit I did it seemed to function as a normal cruise control would. Maybe because it was all highway speeds, it had no reason to shift?? I'll have to test this and see what happens.

[cadillackid]

with a 4 speed if you are in terrain that requires downshift you shouldnt be on cruise.. the 3-4 ratio difference is huge so it takes a major slowdown to downshift it..


with overdrive the 4-5 drop is pretty significant but 5-6 is small.. so its a normal thing to have 6-5 downshifting.. mine will sometimes drop from 5-4 but thats rare.. I usualy wont run cruise if im in hilly terrain .. the navistar cruise is pretty crappy with a lockup transmission.. it overshoots all the time then backs off and has trouble getting itself aggressive enough to catchup without overshooting again.. on flat ground it works fine.. with a non lockup transmission things are more buffered so it has a better time of trying. my bus being a bit over-geared has a tougher time with the cruise.. once I get it geared better the computer will have a better chance.. it seems to do better with the tuner installed as the power comes on quicker..

-Christopher

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

the high idol

Snoop Dog?

[SuperAudioGuy]

Sorry that pic didn't come through. Didn't realize that was a FNG restriction.

[QUOTE=cadillackid;441902]wowsers 3.54 and 39" tires!! my red bus is 33" and 3.54 and that bus is way overgeared.. she tachs about 1750-1850 at 65 or so in 5th.. and like 1550 in 6th.. way too low for that engine.. with 39" tires you are gonna lug the crap out of that...

It might be 38", but I'm still pushing 2500-2700rpm to cruise at 65mph. Would lockup in the 643 pull that down some?

the old WTEC-II MD3060s that came out and worked with the 3 box systems ran ion a J1708 data linl so they worked in cruise mode correctly.

Am I to understand that a 3060 about as plug and play an option for my 3 box system as the 643? Just get the ECM flashed to see an MD instead of AT sort of thing, and get cruise unlocked?
While I'm normally energized by a challenge, I am very much trying to practice the 80/20 rule with this project.

if I were in the same situation knowing myself id probably build a Data link translater.. or use one oif these..

https://c-a-i.net/translators/j08

it would talk to a J1939 TCM and provide the PGNs the allison wants.. at least some of them anyway.

Is this a better (simpler) 2500 solution than the custom ECM, or is it more or less a draw?

Continued Thanks
-Jason

[SuperAudioGuy]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Snoop Dog?

Actually took me a minute...

[cadillackid]

I dont know much about snoop dogg or idol but I do Know the RedByrd wont Idle at the moment since its in pieces right now

[SuperAudioGuy]

Since I'm a newb, some of my posts are being scrutinized, and delayed, yet posted earlier in the thread, so I'm giving this a bump.

Sorry that ECM pic didn't come through. Didn't realize that was a FNG restriction.

wowsers 3.54 and 39" tires!! my red bus is 33" and 3.54 and that bus is way overgeared.. she tachs about 1750-1850 at 65 or so in 5th.. and like 1550 in 6th.. way too low for that engine.. with 39" tires you are gonna lug the crap out of that...

They might be 38", but I'm still pushing 2500-2700rpm to cruise at 65mph. Would lockup in the 643 pull that down some? I also suppose it's possible that it doesn't have the rear gears that it left Navistar with anymore...

the old WTEC-II MD3060s that came out and worked with the 3 box systems ran on a J1708 data link so they worked in cruise mode correctly.

Am I to understand that a 3060 could be about as plug and play an option for my 3 box system as the 643? Just get the ECM flashed to see an MD instead of AT sort of thing, and get cruise unlocked?
-While I'm normally energized by a challenge, I am very much trying to practice the 80/20 rule with this project.

if I were in the same situation knowing myself id probably build a Data link translater.. or use one oif these..

https://c-a-i.net/translators/j08

it would talk to a J1939 TCM and provide the PGNs the allison wants.. at least some of them anyway.

Is this a better (simpler) 2500 solution than the custom ECM, or is it more or less a draw?

Continued Thanks
-Jason

[cadillackid]

probably a draw for the data link. . the 3 box as im told doesnt have any sort of J1939 output so anything WTEC-III or newer wont talk to it..


something tire size wize sounds amiss.. my red bus as 225/70R19.5 tires (33") and in 1:1 gear its 2600 RPM at about 68.. are you on something similar? or 9R22.5? 10R22.5? still seems wierd..



the 643 wont pull your RPMs down.. it is noticable in driveability as the RPMs dont bounce up and down and in a perfect world wqith no Converter slip that you gain a minuscule abount of top speed.. my DEV bus was a 545 now its a 643. it definitely has more spunk in acceleration and runs cooler with the 643.. but 68 at 2800 RPM is still all she will do..


the red bus with its 3.54 and 225/70R19.5 tires and over drive is now Over-geared.. I borderline lug the engine in 5th gear unless im up at 65-70.. and 6th gear I pretty much only use on flat ground going near 70 and the RPM is still too low..



with Overdrive I really need a 4.10 rear.. just havent taken the time to put one on yet..

[SuperAudioGuy]

Great examples with your buses. Thank you.

I agree that something seems amiss. They are 10R22.5, and every calc I do (based on what I think I know) says that I should be doing 65 at @ 2000 rpm, which would be fine with me.

I had just used a tape measure, but mfr spec shows a diameter of 40.2" for my tires, which would point to more of a 4.79 rear end...?

I KNOW I have a 545.
I KNOW I have 39-40" tires.
I THINK I have 3.54 gears based on the VIN. Guess I should find out for sure.

If I DO have 3.54 gears, is it possible that the 545 is slipping THAT much? It runs super hot. If I don't take it easy, the temp gauge can get close to 300 pretty easily, which may be another ? since the fluid never smells the slightest bit burnt. -So many mysteries... lol

Based on the education I'm receiving here, it seems like the 643, or the WTECII 3060 may be the less complicated route for me. I understand that the big gulp with the 3060 is (maybe finding one?) and that allison doesn't make the WTECII TCM anymore, but there's a place in texas (transmissioninstruments.com) that's rebuilding them with better parts for what seems like a reasonable price...

Anything else I should be considering?

Btw, why is RedByrd in pieces?

-Jason

[cadillackid]

It’s possible the 545 isn’t mAking 4th gear.. a wasted 4th gear clutch isn’t unheard of in a 545 but I’d have expected you to have boiled the fluid out by now if that were the case. how did you run the vin ? Call dealer? It’s possible the bus was regeared if it was originally small wheels like mine and they went to bigger hubs but I’m guessing it’s just a 4.44 rear end in there and not a 3.54..

RedByrd was in pieces to get a new (and upgraded) HPOP. In preparation for bigger sticks at some point . I’ve had the sticks for 3 years I should put them in one of these days.

The new HPOP woke it up and no more ICP code even with the tuner turned up. Now I need to deal with the boost. It needs a wastegate turbo.. I’m pulling 28 lbs now and I don’t want it that high on stock head bolts

[SuperAudioGuy]

I'm reasonably sure I'm getting 4th gear, otherwise I'd need like 3600 rpm to get to 65.

I just reached out to the local International shop to get the ratio from the VIN, which I'm assuming isn't correct. Naturally, I couldn't find a tag anywhere on the rear end, so I'll have to use other means. Since it's already seeping a bit, I figure I'll just open it up.

RedByrd was in pieces to get a new (and upgraded) HPOP. In preparation for bigger sticks at some point . I’ve had the sticks for 3 years I should put them in one of these days.

The new HPOP woke it up and no more ICP code even with the tuner turned up. Now I need to deal with the boost. It needs a wastegate turbo.. I’m pulling 28 lbs now and I don’t want it that high on stock head bolts

Nice! Upgrades are fun! Did you know the pump was gonna fix that code, or was it just a happy accident?

-Jason

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by SuperAudioGuy

I'm reasonably sure I'm getting 4th gear, otherwise I'd need like 3600 rpm to get to 65.

I just reached out to the local International shop to get the ratio from the VIN, which I'm assuming isn't correct. Naturally, I couldn't find a tag anywhere on the rear end, so I'll have to use other means. Since it's already seeping a bit, I figure I'll just open it up.



Nice! Upgrades are fun! Did you know the pump was gonna fix that code, or was it just a happy accident?

-Jason

the average lifespan of an HPOP 150k - 200k on a 7.3.. many last longer some dont.. since im in a Beta program for a performance tuner i knew that in talking to the designer that he calls for a steeper HPOP curve by quite a lot than the factory does.. knowing that the IPR duty cycle ran a little higher than average even in stock form i was deeming that the HPOP was weak.. the actual vs desired always tracked pretty close so deeming the IPR faulty wasnt likely and the ICP sensor checked out as well..



the last piece of the puzzle would be the HPOP.. i couldve saved a few hundred bucks and swapped for a stock unit but knowing im running a tuner plus have bigger injectors (which are split shot) the decision was made to upgrade to a performance unit


im pretty much of the mind when something breaks it not only gets fixed it gets upgraded.. (thus how this thread started in the first place when the AT545 decided to stop shifting to first gear some of the time)


the next piece will probably be the turbo.. im a bit concerned with the amount of boost im making.. while 28 PSI of boost definitely helps the EGT stay down in the higher RPM range it is high and the turbo is non waste-gated.. unlike the fords the IH doesnt defuel when you run the boost up to 26 PSI.. I just have the stock headbolts and gaskets.. if im going to start running big sticks and pulling 30+ PSI of boost I'll want to stud it... at that point maybe I just pull it and rebuild the whole thing.. im in the range where i may still have forged rods but also could be PMR's .. if I rebuild it ill stud it and go with a full forged bottom end.. maybe bore it .020 over to give me complete fresh cylinder walls..

[SuperAudioGuy]

So cool. It must be really fun having your brain. Sounds like you're gonna have a sweet sleeper on your hands when you're done. (but are we ever REALLY done?)

I'm normally of the 'upgrade if possible' mindset as well, but I decided to go totally stock when I rebuilt the 466 three months ago. With it being the 190hp 485tq variant, I'm shooting for longevity and better mileage. Not sure that was the right move seeing how easy it seems to be to get another 20 or 50hp out of them, but it's done now. Runs great, and getting good mileage.

In other news... I have confirmed that my rear axle is in fact 3.54!
So, consider me baffled.