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Old 12-07-2018, 10:20 AM   #1
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Question thinking about coolant

I'm going over my auction bus, researching each system. Today is coolant day.
This article popped up on my radar, I have no connection with it,
https://www.constructionequipment.co...engine-coolant


It seems to give formal specs, like atsm-6210; which I had heard of and D-5752 which I had not heard of, and not push any specific corp. product but instead tells you what to look for.


executive summary; seems to be that "organic-acid-technology" [OAT] coolant are the way to go. Go through the pain of a full flush once and then stick with OAT. You just have to add an "extender" at 300,000 miles If I get there I'll be real happy to do that



I also had a dream last night about hoses, I have been thinking about prophylactically changing the coolant hoses so one doesn't bust at a really bad time, and then carry these old hoses as spare hoses just in case. Shouldn't take up much room in the "basement". I'm planning on boon-docking or overlanding a lot so self-reluctance is important to me. When I'm solo, which right now is the only option, I want to be able to get back to my home-base.



But then I ask myself, how often do hoses bust. Its only happened once in my life and that was back in college when we were buying cars on their way to the junk yard and driving them until they had to be towed to the junkyard.



any thoughts?
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:30 AM   #2
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As for coolants...


One issue to be aware of seems to be the need for a special type for any wet sleeve engine. Something about cavitation creating pinholes in the cylinders. Some info here...


Coolant Formulation Relevant to Coolant System Cavitation in Wet Sleeve Cylinder Walls


and here...


https://www.constructionequipment.co...sleeve-engines



And maybe some other folks can chime in as well.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:38 AM   #3
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even non wet sleeve.. the V-8 navistar diesels require the Coolant additives as well unless using a compatible ELC coolant..
-Christopher
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:23 PM   #4
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Thanks for the links. Good reading.

I am still confused as to what coolant to top off my Cummins 8.3.

The existing coolant is green. Do I need "fully formulated " or "organic acid" sort.

My limited understanding is that mixing different types is a bad idea.

Anyone here know how I can figure out what coolant I need?

Thanks.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:09 PM   #5
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And for anyone with a Cummins 4 or 6BT... this is what I found over on 4btswaps.com...


"The 4bt does not have liners, and this is what is suggested for Dodge with Cummins...The Zerex G 05....they do not want the red Dexcool for any reason..."

Also an extended explanation of the cavitation issues with any wet sleeve engines here...

https://www.thedieselstop.com/forums...mation-202709/
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:35 PM   #6
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from jug

Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
...

My limited understanding is that mixing different types is a bad idea.

Anyone here know how I can figure out what coolant I need?

Thanks.

On one jug of oat type coolant I saw an admonishment not to allow contamination of more than 25%, so that implies that there is some tolerance.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:39 PM   #7
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@tango thanks for the link, more info to analyze is always good. The truth is out there.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:47 PM   #8
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DexCool and also the ford gold appear to be 2 different birds when it comes to coolant.. there asre synthetics out that are safe for all engines. and dont require additives.. from what i understand anything listed as polyOrganic is safe for all diesel engines.. but some of the OAT are not..



Green with additives appears safe for most of the older engines.. HOWEVER.. too much additive creates "fallout" into sensitive items such as engine oil coolers.. thus why its not recommended on newer engines that have small passage EGR coolers and oil coolers,. they are easily plugged up by someone putting too much additive in green coolant..



its imperative it is kept normal and with green you need to do coolant changes more often.. Most often what is done is a system is flushed, fresh coolant installed.. additive brought to normal levels. and use of a coolant filter that slow releases additive over a period of time helps to keep your levels normal even with slight losses of coolant over time.. but you still need to test often.. and when the coolant gets aged but you havent added much, you dont just start pouring additive in .. green coolant begins to ail.. change it on time..



I also again mentiion coolant maintenance is not just an issue on wet sleevers.. there were issues on navistar 7.3's using the wrong coolant which are non-wet-sleeve engines..

some peiople with ford 7.3's installed the navistar water pump that the 444E uses so a time-release filter could be installed.. red coolant in a 444E has a definite serial number cutoff.. lots of cvhanges were made to that engine in 99.5. which allowed it to use ford gold or ELC red coolant..



the blue coolant seems to be lethal to navistar engines.. ive heard more than one issue with DT-466E's being damaged by use of blue (cummins?) coolants..


-Christopher
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:16 PM   #9
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Question final answer:-)

I've been reading up on coolant and visiting stores in the area to see
what I can actually get.
I've decided, at least for today, to go with the Organic Acid Technology stuff.
I was confused for a while, I thought that OAT met non-ethylene Glycol.
It seems that all coolant has ethylene glycol but I did see reference to a
propylene glycol base .
I've found the following:
1) fleetguard ES Compleat OAT
2) Peak Final charge Global extended life
3) zerex G-05

The peak literature made reference to both OAT and NOAT or nitrited OAT.
Not sure of the pros and cons of nitrited. Some seem the feature the absence or others
feature its presents.
What does nitrited refer to and why or why not have it.

The fleetguard made reference to ethylene glycol and and propylene glycol.
Other than hearing that propylene glycol is less toxic, I don't know why one over the other.
Ethylene glycol is more common and I assume cheaper.
Anyone know about the difference?

I'm tending towards the peak stuff, its available around the corner from me
unless I hear convincing information otherwise or its silly expensive

Any thoughts?
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:32 PM   #10
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keeping coolant the same at all times in your engine is important.. as an FYI, I see peak FinalCharge global in truck stops and auto parts stores all the time..

-Christopher
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:08 PM   #11
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I am getting a new radiator for my bus and had been wondering what is best as well. The radiator company just says no silicates. Green stuff has silicates, seems most OAT does not.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:12 PM   #12
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Well I did it. I decided on the peak final stuff, its OAT and its $30/gal for the regular stuff. The 50/50 stuff was 19/gal so the regular stuff is cheaper than the 50/50. I can add my own water. Distilled water is .99 cents per gallon.


What swayed my decision was:
1) no yearly testing, test strips and adding Secondary Coolant Additive every year.
2) The part about the silicate being hard on seals in the water pump made sense, still don't know if its a real problem or just something the marketing folks made up.
3) The newer stuff is required in new cars with smaller passageways, that get plugged easier. Well my old engine, most likely, has smaller passageways because of two decades of life.
4) I'm figuring that the material science boys and girls must have made some good improvements in the last 26 yrs.

Just a quick obvious note, buy an extra jugs of coolant, pour half of it into one your empty jugs of coolant and add water to both halves. Now you have two gallons of 50/50 for top ups on the road.


Now I have to do the work of flush, refill and recycle, once it quits raining.


The hoses all look just too new to replace. I think the school I bought it from was good about hose maintenance, they all had easily readable motocraft part numbers. I also noticed that there seems to be some kind of funky Ford connector going the the heater and a crimp on tee to the mid mount AC unit.
I'm going to trace out all the coolant hoses before i start just to make sure i understand what is going where.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:03 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
I am getting a new radiator for my bus and had been wondering what is best as well. The radiator company just says no silicates. Green stuff has silicates, seems most OAT does not.
Let us know what your learn about OAT. I found OAT, NOAT, hybrid OAT.



I'm interested in what you learn. I'm always looking for factual information and the reasons behind the decisions that folks make when selecting from a set of options; and boy are there options in coolant and very little factual information.
I found the corps put out lots of marketing literature but very little factual information.
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Old 12-16-2018, 12:56 PM   #14
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Here is what I know from my own experience.

Green stuff, works well in older engines with brass radiators. Can be tested and if needed supplemental additives added. On larger engines that have a coolant filter these often have an additive "pellet" in them.

Dexcool, in an iron block with aluminum heads and aluminum radiator it works well if it was used as the original coolant and always replaced with dexcool. Perfectly clean radiators even at end of service life of vehicle. Does not play well with other antifreeze.

The new stuff, I have no experience with and am frustrated many do not state what is in it just it is good for everything. Hmmm little unsure of that. So continuing research....
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:04 PM   #15
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I think itís the red
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Old 12-20-2018, 10:19 PM   #16
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1st step in flushing old coolant

I'm switching from old standard green coolant to the RED OAT coolant.
Most articles say its compatible but I found one article that said
it should have less than 25% contamination. It was also recommended that
I remove the drain plug in the block to get more of the old stuff out.
I thought about that, found a couple of reasonable candidates for drain plugs
but decided to leave well enough alone.
Instead I'm doing a number of flushes with distilled water. The math say
I should be below 6% old stuff when I get done. I able to drain about 4-3/4
gallons just using the petcock on the radiator. The math follows: feel free to check
my math. I did the calculations assuming I'm only getting 4 gal out, its easier

starting assumption: 50:50 mix, math folks know that as a 1:1 ratio,
that is 4 gallons of coolant, and 4 of water or 50% coolant.
The system holds approx 8 gallons.

Step 1
Remove 4 gallons, that leaves 2 gallons of coolant and 2 gallons of water.
Add 4 gallons* of water, Now I have 25% coolant.

Step 2; get engine hot and let it cool off to mix it all up.
Remove 4 gallons, that leaves 1 gallon of coolant and 3 gallons of water,
add 4 gals of water*, Now I have 12.5% coolant. that is 1 gallon coolant, 7 gals of water.

Step 3; drive around.
remove 4 gallons, that leaves 1/2gal coolant, and 3-1/2 gals of water,
Add 4 gallons* of new OAT coolant, that leaves about 7% old coolant,
which is way below the worst case spec I could find. and since I
was really removing almost 5 gals each time, it should be good.

I'm sure there is a fancy equation to give the correct number, if you know
it I'd love to learn it. It must be some kind of series math thing.

*Adding the 4 gallons back is a two step process. Only 2 gallons fit in the
radiator and it blocks a 2 gallon size air bubble in the engine.
I had to run the engine for a bit, let it cool off and
then the air bubble moved to the radiator so I add the other 2 gallons.

Make sure to store the old coolant away from animals, neighborhood cats etc.
Its highly toxic. I found 4 old plastic milk jugs and reused the jug
the distilled water came in. Then I found an environmental friendly garage,
in my case it was a goodyear tire place, that took the old coolant for recycling.
I'll be giving them first rights to my new tires. One hand washes the other
and we should reward corporations that are doing right; its so hard to find
that in the current business world.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:25 AM   #17
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I ended up going with the "global" antifreeze. Since I had the radiator off to replace it I also flushed the engine block. Made up a garden hose connection to the heater hose for flushing. I also added a coolant filter to the system

I think you should be fine doing it the way you have.

By the way I went to Napa auto parts the other day for new heater hoses, and thought maybe get an antifreeze tester and maybe some test strips as well. That did not go well they sold me a tester only good for propyline glycol, which I noticed on the way out, and they were very grumpy about it. Also asking about the test strips his response was "for what I am doing I would not need it" He never did ask why I want them so how would he know? I maintain a fleet of railroad equipment, so better testing would be real helpful.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:30 AM   #18
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Just like any chain Napa is only as good as the local employees they hire. Both my local Napa's are horrible and everyone who I know has had the same experience with them. They won't have exactly what you want/need so they try their best to sell you something else. That's if you can get them to help you.
I've still got $60 worth of wrong filters they sold me and won't take back.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie View Post
I ended up going with the "global" antifreeze. Since I had the radiator off to replace it I also flushed the engine block. Made up a garden hose connection to the heater hose for flushing. I also added a coolant filter to the system
...
.
I didn't touch the heater hose. The connection at the heater looks like some funny ford push on plastic thing, not a normal band clamp. It most likely made manufacturing faster but I'm sure that after all these years it will leak. They dont do those types of things to make it better for the customer only cheaper for them.


I am replacing the lower radiator hose, it looks original, red band running down the length and wire clamps instead of SS band clamps. The wire clamps have little staples positioning the clamps. It has a spring in it so that also implies factory since most after market hoses don't have springs.



I've looked at the other hoses and they all have a crimp on connection on at least one end. Don't know if there is after market direct replacements or if I will have to fashion something else. There really is only one hard one, its the output of the heater. There is a crimp-on tee, a small hose returns to the bottom of the radiator, a larger hose goes to the RH head. The small one has a crimp-on middle section of metal that routes it around the alternator and keeps it out of the serpentine belt.


Today I'm working on the lower radiator hose. Wish me luck.
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:10 PM   #20
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Today I'm working on the lower radiator hose. Wish me luck.[/QUOTE]

Good luck with it. At least yours is new enough to get hoses.

I could not find new hoses so made up metal pipe and just used straight hose at the ends.

Today my project is wiring for a trailer hitch. It is all there just not all working.
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